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Repeated breaches of Guideline.
Thread poster: DLyons
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Post made empty by poster
Daniela Zambrini
Daniela Zambrini  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 14:13
English to Italian
+ ...
user name and profile ID Apr 21, 2014

DLyons wrote:


It looked familiar, so I checked a bit more and found that it was a new ID for a user who had drawn a lot of negative comment in the past.

In my book, the site staff are allowing a breach of Rule 7 "Creating a new profile to bypass restrictions or gain advantages is prohibited." because I reported the issue and was told that no rules are being broken.


Ciao,

just for the record: changing one's user name is not the same as creating a new ID (the number associated to the profile)

Changes in the publicly displayed profile name are allowed http://www.proz.com/faq/80317#80317

D

[Edited at 2014-04-21 10:46 GMT]


 
DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The letter of the law and the spirit? Apr 21, 2014

Daniela Zambrini wrote:

just for the record: changing one's user name is not the same as creating a new ID (the number associated to the profile)

Changes in the publicly displayed profile name are allowed http://www.proz.com/faq/80317#80317
[Edited at 2014-04-21 10:46 GMT]


Thanks Daniela. The letter of the Rules may indeed have been followed - but, for me, their spirit has been breached. This user looks different to the casual answerer of questions, so they are now getting answers from people who used to ignore them (and presumably, they can repeat that user name change again some time in the future).

Anyway, no point in prolonging the discussion. This town's too small for the both of us

P.S. Adding a monthly quota of, say, 100 questions and/or an annual one of, say, 500 shouldn't cause any problem for established translators, people starting a career or students. It would stop people using ProZ as part of a crowdsourcing business model though.

[Edited at 2014-04-21 11:10 GMT]


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 14:13
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
'When other resources have been exhausted' is open to interpretation Apr 21, 2014

Let me play devil's advocate ...

Time is also a resource. I admit to posting questions which I might have been able to find answers to myself, given more time, but not within my deadline.

I thank my colleagues and hope their answers are useful additions to the glossary.

When working at the outer limits of my fields, or in my less specialised languages and pro-bono work, I have fired off questions that others have found easy to answer - colleagues who specia
... See more
Let me play devil's advocate ...

Time is also a resource. I admit to posting questions which I might have been able to find answers to myself, given more time, but not within my deadline.

I thank my colleagues and hope their answers are useful additions to the glossary.

When working at the outer limits of my fields, or in my less specialised languages and pro-bono work, I have fired off questions that others have found easy to answer - colleagues who specialise in the right technical fields or languages.

Point-grabber that I am, I try to reciprocate when similar questions come up in Danish about things I know from living here, but for various reasons the answers are not obvious otherwise.

Understanding the source is sometimes a problem - abbreviations and highly idiomatic expressions and allusions frequently cause trouble.
Typos that are not recognised as such ...
But at 2 am when you are dead tired and desperate to meet a deadline in six hours, it is not easy!
_________________________________

These are all IMHO legitimate reasons for posting questions that are easy for some people to answer - and may be fiendishly difficult if you have to guess or don't know where to look.
That is why the guideline cannot be rigidly enforced - there is no reasonable and consistent way of deciding what is 'too easy'.
_________________________________

In general, however, posting thousands of questions would seem a sign of an unprofessional approach one way or another. (And really, we don't want that kind of person to contribute too many answers to KudoZ!)

Professionals should as far as possible turn down any jobs where they are out of their depth, and give themselves time to find the terminology for work they do take on.

But life is full of surprises, and although I have used the blocking feature, or turned off KudoZ altogether when busy, I can bear with most askers - I've been there and done the same thing myself!
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DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Open to interpretation Apr 21, 2014

Thanks Christine, I have absolutely no problem with what you're saying. We're all human we get tired, have blank spots, have moments of unavoidable pressure and allowance should be made for that. Rules allow 15 q/day - absolutely fine. 60 q/week - that's pushing it a bit in my book, but OK, a single project can turn badly wrong.

It's when free answers over extended periods seem built into a deliberate business model that I baulk!

Restrictions at about the level of 10
... See more
Thanks Christine, I have absolutely no problem with what you're saying. We're all human we get tired, have blank spots, have moments of unavoidable pressure and allowance should be made for that. Rules allow 15 q/day - absolutely fine. 60 q/week - that's pushing it a bit in my book, but OK, a single project can turn badly wrong.

It's when free answers over extended periods seem built into a deliberate business model that I baulk!

Restrictions at about the level of 100 q/mth or 500/yr would seem generous to me for professionals. I'm thinking about a sort of "halving-down" formula starting from 15 q/day i.e.

1 week = 1/2 (7*15) = 50 q/week.
1 month = 1/2 (4*50) = 100 q/mth
1 year = 1/2 (12*100) = 600 q/yr.

[Edited at 2014-04-21 11:53 GMT]


Even better:

1 week = 1/3 (7*15) = 35 q/week.
1 month = 1/3 (4*35) = 50 q/mth
1 year = 1/3 (12*50) = 200 q/yr.

[Edited at 2014-04-21 12:09 GMT]
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Woodstock (X)
Woodstock (X)  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:13
German to English
+ ...
I sympathize Apr 21, 2014

Some years ago* there was a (n ab)user of Kudoz who was not a translator or a company, but someone trying to learn English by reading English books and asking for help in English/English Kudoz to clarify terms and expressions that could easily have been looked up elsewhere. I was really steamed when I started checking the person's Kudoz history after having helped a few times and realized we were being used by some person too lazy to do their own research, and complained. I was told no rules wer... See more
Some years ago* there was a (n ab)user of Kudoz who was not a translator or a company, but someone trying to learn English by reading English books and asking for help in English/English Kudoz to clarify terms and expressions that could easily have been looked up elsewhere. I was really steamed when I started checking the person's Kudoz history after having helped a few times and realized we were being used by some person too lazy to do their own research, and complained. I was told no rules were being broken, and that was that.

After that I understood that there would always be plenty to gripe about on how this, that or the other thing would (or would not) be handled here, so I decided to stop letting it bother me and learned how to ignore things that irked me, since it was very likely not to change. There are many other things I do like about Proz and features have been added that are very useful, so I keep renewing my membership for those things.

Running a place this big is challenging, and there will always be something someone doesn't like. That's life. It would be regrettable to see you go, but if you derive absolutely no benefit from the site, it's clear the fee could be put to better use elsewhere.

695,413 Registered users; 18 Employees work for ProZ.com; 3,191,397 KudoZ translation questions asked

*I just checked my old support tickets - it was in 2006.
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DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Agreed Apr 21, 2014

Woodstock wrote:

Running a place this big is challenging, and there will always be something someone doesn't like. That's life.


Yes, I'd taken to ignoring this person, but mustn't have filtered them because they looked like a new user to me when they changed their name. That seems to me like deliberately gaming the system, but hey they were already doing that so it's just another level of abuse. Anyway I've filtered them now.

ProZ is a commercial organization and will act to guard their revenues. Losing my revenue won't cause them to change but it's the only little pressure point I have, so I'll use it when the time comes. ProZ needs us more than we need them? Or not??

[Edited at 2014-04-21 12:11 GMT]


 
Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:13
German to English
Life is too short ... Apr 21, 2014

... to get worked up over Kudoz.
It was inevitable that crowdsourcing would come to the translation business. Anyone with a computer and Internet connection can try to be a translator, just as anyone who knows more than two translators can start a translation agency. Although such folk are asking 1970-level prices, they are not competitors, and I pay them no mind.

Personally, I'm embarrassed if I have to ask post two inquiries for a single project, and my query/answer ratio
... See more
... to get worked up over Kudoz.
It was inevitable that crowdsourcing would come to the translation business. Anyone with a computer and Internet connection can try to be a translator, just as anyone who knows more than two translators can start a translation agency. Although such folk are asking 1970-level prices, they are not competitors, and I pay them no mind.

Personally, I'm embarrassed if I have to ask post two inquiries for a single project, and my query/answer ratio is respectable, I think.

You can easily ignore annoying people on the Internet. I'm much more worrried about the effect on climate change on the price of wine and beer than I am about the abuse of Kudoz.
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DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes, it's not my problem. Apr 21, 2014

Kevin Fulton wrote:
I'm much more worrried about the effect on climate change on the price of wine and beer than I am about the abuse of Kudoz.


An eminently sensible attitude (except for the omission of Single Malt whiskies).


 
Russell Jones
Russell Jones  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:13
Italian to English
Agreed Apr 22, 2014

DLyons wrote:

I'm thinking about a sort of "halving-down" formula starting from 15 q/day i.e.

Even better:

1 week = 1/3 (7*15) = 35 q/week.
1 month = 1/3 (4*35) = 50 q/mth
1 year = 1/3 (12*50) = 200 q/yr.

[Edited at 2014-04-21 12:09 GMT]


I totally agree that this would be a reasonable formula.
But failure to adopt it would not prompt any action on my part.

What might prompt me to do so is the fact that this thread has been removed from the homepage!

[Edited at 2014-04-22 14:00 GMT]


 
DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It's no big deal. Apr 22, 2014

Russell Jones wrote:

I totally agree that this would be a reasonable formula.
But failure to adopt it would not prompt any action on my part.


Nor on mine - it only occurred to me as I was writing.

I've filtered the user and will now drop the matter until I'm asked to renew my sub.
It's not my problem, and it's up to ProZ to decide whether it's one for them or not; probably not.


 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 10:13
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
A 2013 survey on this issue Apr 22, 2014

A survey done last year included the following question, that received 432 replies:

Some ProZ.com members have raised the issue of lowering the number of questions that members and non-members may ask per day or week. What is your opinion on lowering the daily/weekly limit on KudoZ questions?
* Agree, question-asking should be limited further - 113 (26.2%)
* It's fine the way it is - 194 (44.9%)
* I disagree, question asking should be limited less - 73 (16.
... See more
A survey done last year included the following question, that received 432 replies:

Some ProZ.com members have raised the issue of lowering the number of questions that members and non-members may ask per day or week. What is your opinion on lowering the daily/weekly limit on KudoZ questions?
* Agree, question-asking should be limited further - 113 (26.2%)
* It's fine the way it is - 194 (44.9%)
* I disagree, question asking should be limited less - 73 (16.9%)
* I don't care - 52 (12.0%)


If we exclude the 12% of 'I don't care' votes, we have:
* 29.7% would have stricter limits
* 51.0% are happy with the current limits
* 19.2% would have less limits

This means that 70% were happy with the current limits, or would prefer to have them relaxed.

Regards,
Enrique
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writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Another solution Apr 22, 2014

2.1 (Guideline): "Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.

I suggest putting tee
... See more
2.1 (Guideline): "Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.

I suggest putting teeth back into this guideline and making it a rule that is enforced. That will put an end to a great deal of abuse without targeting any one individual. It's just a common sense rule anyway that professional translators abide by on a daily basis in real life. There is no reason why Proz shouldn't try to instill a little bit of professional behaviour as well. I don't think many people will object to answering problem questions once all the basic groundwork has been done by the person asking.
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DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not unreasonable Apr 22, 2014

Enrique Cavalitto wrote:

A survey done last year included the following question, that received 432 replies:

Some ProZ.com members have raised the issue of lowering the number of questions that members and non-members may ask per day or week. What is your opinion on lowering the daily/weekly limit on KudoZ questions?
* Agree, question-asking should be limited further - 113 (26.2%)
* It's fine the way it is - 194 (44.9%)
* I disagree, question asking should be limited less - 73 (16.9%)
* I don't care - 52 (12.0%)


If we exclude the 12% of 'I don't care' votes, we have:
* 29.7% would have stricter limits
* 51.0% are happy with the current limits
* 19.2% would have less limits

This means that 70% were happy with the current limits of would prefer to have them relaxed.

Regards,
Enrique


Thanks Enrique, that's very interesting. I don't have any real problem with the daily or weekly limits myself - as you see above, I have a mild preference to reduce the 60/wk but no issues with it remaining.

But like most questionnaires, it comes down to the question asked (and the way it's asked). I wonder what answer a survey question on appropriate monthy and/or yearly limits would return? Suppose you surveyed e.g.

Q1. The current daily question limit is 15 and the current weekly limit is 60. There has been a suggestion that a monthly limit should be introduced. Which of the following would be your preferred option?
1) 250 questions per month (equivalent to no change in the existing situation).
2) 200 questions per month.
3) 150 questions per month.
4) 100 questions per month.

Q2. The current daily question limit is 15 and the current weekly limit is 60. There has been a suggestion that a yearly limit should be introduced. Which of the following would be your preferred option?
1) 3000 questions per year (equivalent to no change in the existing situation).
2) 2000 questions per year.
3) 1500 questions per year.
4) 1000 questions per year.
5) 500 questions per year.
6) 250 questions per year.

It'd be an interesting exercise and I suggest that the site do it. Quite possibly site users generally have a different take from mine


 
DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 13:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I largely agree. Apr 22, 2014

writeaway wrote:

2.1 (Guideline): "Help" KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.

I suggest putting teeth back into this guideline and making it a rule that is enforced. That will put an end to a great deal of abuse without targeting any one individual. It's just a common sense rule anyway that professional translators abide by on a daily basis in real life. There is no reason why Proz shouldn't try to instill a little bit of professional behaviour as well. I don't think many people will object to answering problem questions once all the basic groundwork has been done by the person asking.



The only problem I see is that very light enforcement is appropriate for students, early career translators and even established translators having the occasional bad hair day. Where strict enforcement is appropriate is when a user systematically and repeatedly breaches the guideline as part of their business model.

But how to distinguish those cases without another layer of bureaucracy, additional work and subjectivity? I did suggest a relatively lightweight system of reporting allegations in an earlier posting http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/267439-old_wine_in_new_wineskins.htm

Ultimately, I suggested that site staff privately remind such users of Rule 2.1 "and then enforce it in these specific cases".

[Edited at 2014-04-22 15:14 GMT]


 
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