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Suggestion: make KudoZ answers anonymous to non-moderators
Thread poster: Luiza Kipper
Vanda Nissen
Vanda Nissen  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 15:19
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
Christine has a point Mar 10, 2015

I do not want my Kudoz answers being hidden behind some anonymous user, either because potential outsourcers, especially fellow translators, indeed, watch Kudoz.

 
Luiza Kipper
Luiza Kipper  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:19
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Notice that Mar 10, 2015

Vanda Nissen wrote:

I do not want my Kudoz answers being hidden behind some anonymous user, either because potential outsourcers, especially fellow translators, indeed, watch Kudoz.


My suggestion is that KudoZ answers remain anonymous only before the best answer is chosen/the question is closed. Then all the names can be revealed. This is a known system of avoiding bias.

Outsourcers will continue to have access to everything that has been done and said.

[Edited at 2015-03-10 20:35 GMT]


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:19
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Hehe Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:
If KudoZ is not about winning points nor about being "Mother Theresa", then what is it about? Licking your colleagues boots? hehe


Maybe it is there to help your colleagues and to get help when you need it
Maybe it is there to help you to establish yourself as a specialist in a certain field
Maybe it is a tool that promotes networking in certain specialties

And, like the fora, it may be a tool that allows some insight in soft skills a person has or not - hehe


 
Katalin Sandor
Katalin Sandor  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 06:19
English to Hungarian
+ ...
You've just reminded me Mar 10, 2015

why I stopped participating in KudoZ years ago.

Luiza Kipper wrote:

The answerer is responsible for providing enough references. It's his/her duty to do that in order to win the KudoZ points. If the answerer hasn't provided enough references, they are not completely deserving of the KudoZ points when doubt arises.


The way I see it, the answerer has no duty whatsoever. The translator paid to deliver a translation (in our case the asker) has the responsibility to do his research and find the terminology he needs. Now if he gets stuck, is pressed for time, whatever, and seeks help on KudoZ, he has the responsibility to be grateful for any hints or tips he may receive. And based on that, he has the duty to continue his research (for which he is paid, have I mentioned that yet?).

For God's sake, it's just KudoZ beads you are handing out. To expect people busy trying to earn a living to do your homework for you in the form of spending hours doing research to back up their solution, research that YOU, the asker, could do once you have that term, is rather unreasonable in my book.

This KudoZ thing only worked for me as long as there was a feeling of camaraderie, just helping each other out. Your approach, Louiza, has killed all the fun and sense of doing something worthwhile when contributing. As if the answerer has become a paid servant with duties towards the asker...


 
Luiza Kipper
Luiza Kipper  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:19
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good point, but Mar 10, 2015

Katalin Sandor wrote:

why I stopped participating in KudoZ years ago.

Luiza Kipper wrote:

The answerer is responsible for providing enough references. It's his/her duty to do that in order to win the KudoZ points. If the answerer hasn't provided enough references, they are not completely deserving of the KudoZ points when doubt arises.


The way I see it, the answerer has no duty whatsoever. The translator paid to deliver a translation (in our case the asker) has the responsibility to do his research and find the terminology he needs. Now if he gets stuck, is pressed for time, whatever, and seeks help on KudoZ, he has the responsibility to be grateful for any hints or tips he may receive. And based on that, he has the duty to continue his research (for which he is paid, have I mentioned that yet?).

For God's sake, it's just KudoZ beads you are handing out. To expect people busy trying to earn a living to do your homework for you in the form of spending hours doing research to back up their solution, research that YOU, the asker, could do once you have that term, is rather unreasonable in my book.

This KudoZ thing only worked for me as long as there was a feeling of camaraderie, just helping each other out. Your approach, Louiza, has killed all the fun and sense of doing something worthwhile when contributing. As if the answerer has become a paid servant with duties towards the asker...


If you indeed give the best answer, most times your answer is chosen as correct even without references. Were your correct answers constantly refuted just because you did not provide references?


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:19
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Do you think agencies too should ignore experience? Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:
I strongly disagree that seeing who is posting the answer helps.

Reputation is not all hot air. If somebody has a good track record I will pay them more attention. It's a useful filter that saves me time and effort. Maybe in an ideal world we'd all consider every answer in isolation with perfect objectivity, but this is not an ideal world.

Let's reframe the situation. How would you feel if an agency ignored your track record, if it dismissed your years of experience, if it assigned you the same importance as a rank beginner for every new job that came along? And paid you at the same level it paid a rank beginner? By denying the validity and importance of experience, that is the philosophical road down which you're leading yourself.

You might want to take note of how sites like www.stackoverflow.com - which is well over two orders of magnitude more popular than proz.com, globally 55th vs 7213th - make explicit use of reputation and reputation-building to increase participation in the site.

I do understand why you suggest what you suggest and I appreciate the genuine feeling behind it, but you're fighting against several millenia of human behaviour. People are biased towards people with experience, and for good reasons. You can't just force them to ignore the issue.

Regards
Dan


 
Katalin Sandor
Katalin Sandor  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 06:19
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Irrelevant for the argument Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:

If you indeed give the best answer, most times your answer is chosen as correct even without references. Were your correct answers constantly refuted just because you did not provide references?


No, but that is not the point. It is the attitude I see in your post that I have a problem with. The answerer having duties. KudoZ points worth dying for. Oh, never mind. I am beginning to sound like my own grandmother.

[Edited at 2015-03-10 21:13 GMT]


 
Vanda Nissen
Vanda Nissen  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 15:19
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
Still Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:
My suggestion is that KudoZ answers remain anonymous only before the best answer is chosen/the question is closed. Then all the names can be revealed. This is a known system of avoiding bias.

Outsourcers will continue to have access to everything that has been done and said.


Still, I would rather prefer seeing the names behind the questions. I've been 'playing' Kudoz games for 10 years, and I basically know all major players in my language pairs. I know who is good at technical translations and who is good at legal translations. And if I've got a technical term in my marketing text, I want to see who has submitted the answer - somebody with a degree in Engineering or somebody who just thinks s/he knows the answer.
A lot of new translators even do not bother to read the question in full among other things! You can call it bias but I just simply do not want to waste my time reading their answers if I recognize their names from the previous Kudoz questions.


 
Vanda Nissen
Vanda Nissen  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 15:19
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
I agree Mar 10, 2015

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
Maybe it is there to help your colleagues and to get help when you need it
Maybe it is there to help you to establish yourself as a specialist in a certain field
Maybe it is a tool that promotes networking in certain specialties

And, like the fora, it may be a tool that allows some insight in soft skills a person has or not - hehe


For me Kudoz mainly is about helping my colleauges and getting help when I need it. And fellow translators share this point of view. I am also a Proz.com trainer, and actually after my webinars several people have thanked me for my Kudoz answers.

And yes, it is also about networking. About a month ago I was looking for a technical translator in my English-Russian pair, and when I was going through the bids, Kudoz answers was one of the first things I was looking at (not going through the answers but just recognizing the name from Kudoz).


 
Luiza Kipper
Luiza Kipper  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:19
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not at all Mar 10, 2015

Dan Lucas wrote:

Luiza Kipper wrote:
I strongly disagree that seeing who is posting the answer helps.

Reputation is not all hot air. If somebody has a good track record I will pay them more attention. It's a useful filter that saves me time and effort. Maybe in an ideal world we'd all consider every answer in isolation with perfect objectivity, but this is not an ideal world.

Let's reframe the situation. How would you feel if an agency ignored your track record, if it dismissed your years of experience, if it assigned you the same importance as a rank beginner for every new job that came along? And paid you at the same level it paid a rank beginner? By denying the validity and importance of experience, that is the philosophical road down which you're leading yourself.

You might want to take note of how sites like www.stackoverflow.com - which is well over two orders of magnitude more popular than proz.com, globally 55th vs 7213th - make explicit use of reputation and reputation-building to increase participation in the site.

I do understand why you suggest what you suggest and I appreciate the genuine feeling behind it, but you're fighting against several millenia of human behaviour. People are biased towards people with experience, and for good reasons. You can't just force them to ignore the issue.

Regards
Dan


Let's not confuse things. I'm talking about being objective in choosing the best answer in KudoZ, a process which I think could be improved, as we all know that the KudoZ glossaries are not perfect...

I am not "fighting against several millenia of human behavior". There's a whole load of systems like what I have suggested floating around. Like I said the names could be revealed after the best answer is chosen and there is zero advantage in seeing who is the answerer before picking the correct answer.


 
DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 05:19
Spanish to English
+ ...
There's a lot to be said for not participating in KudoZ. Mar 10, 2015

[quote]Katalin Sandor wrote:

why I stopped participating in KudoZ years ago.

Luiza Kipper wrote:

The way I see it, the answerer has no duty whatsoever. The translator paid to deliver a translation (in our case the asker) has the responsibility to do his research and find the terminology he needs. Now if he gets stuck, is pressed for time, whatever, and seeks help on KudoZ, he has the responsibility to be grateful for any hints or tips he may receive. And based on that, he has the duty to continue his research (for which he is paid, have I mentioned that yet?).


Agree 100%.

Every translator has to start somewhere, but no answerer is under any obligation to get them started - there's a choice whether to respond or not. Some askers understand that answers may be provisional pointers, given in good faith, to help them look in promising directions. Others, perhaps, do not fully understand that due diligence is an ethical responsibility for the asker.

Answering questions, in certain fields, from certain askers, has the potential to actually cause harm. So maybe there's an ethical responsibility to abstain from answering, unless one has a reason to trust the asker.

And getting back to the original question, knowing who the answerer is allows the asker to focus on the most promising solutions first (and perhaps to ultimately reject them in favour of one of the others).


 
texjax DDS PhD
texjax DDS PhD  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:19
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
Really? Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:

Like I said the names could be revealed after the best answer is chosen and there is zero advantage in seeing who is the answerer before picking the correct answer.


The correct answer?
To begin with, oftentimes the asker has no clue, (s)he is translating a document in a field (s)he is not familiar with or simply doesn't understand, therefore (s)he is in no position to chose the "correct" answer, and hiding the identity of the contributors would definitely not help.

Let's say the asker posts a question in the medical field. Don't you think it would be useful to know whether the answer comes from somebody with a medical degree and 20 years of translation experience under the belt, rather than someone with no scientific background and merely two hours of online courses in medical translation in their CV?

Think about it.

PS. Also agree wholeheartedly with all Katalin has said so far.


[Edited at 2015-03-10 22:24 GMT]


 
Luiza Kipper
Luiza Kipper  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 02:19
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It's a fallacy Mar 10, 2015

texjax DDS PhD wrote:

Luiza Kipper wrote:

Like I said the names could be revealed after the best answer is chosen and there is zero advantage in seeing who is the answerer before picking the correct answer.


The correct answer?
To begin with, oftentimes the asker has no clue, (s)he is translating a document in a field (s)he is not familiar with or simply doesn't understand, therefore (s)he is in no position to chose the "correct" answer, and hiding the identity of the contributors would definitely not help.

Let's say the asker posts a question in the medical field. Don't you think it would be useful to know whether the answer comes from somebody with a medical degree and 20 years of translations under the belt, rather than someone with no scientific background and merely two hours of online courses in medical translation in their CV?

Think about it.

PS. Also agree wholeheartedly with all Katalin has said so far.


Sometimes we see incorrect answers given by experienced translators in a given field of expertise. As a matter of fact, I have just seen one. A user gave a better answer than an expert in the field. Need I say more?


 
DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 05:19
Spanish to English
+ ...
One swallow does not make a summer. Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:

Need I say more?


Yes, you do. Rather more crudely, using a blunderbuss, one will occasionally hit something.

"True ease in writing comes from art, not chance,
As those move easiest who have learned to dance."
Alexander Pope, Essays in Criticism,


 
Andy Watkinson
Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 06:19
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Just makes it more difficult for askers. Mar 10, 2015

Luiza Kipper wrote:

Sometimes we see incorrect answers given by experienced translators in a given field of expertise. As a matter of fact, I have just seen one. A user gave a better answer than an expert in the field. Need I say more?


I quite understand your suggestion and, to a certain extent, it makes sense.

Yet, as others have already pointed out above, knowing the identity of the answerer is an essential element when ascertaining the degree of reliability of the answer itself (even if it's just a few words w/out references and with a CL of 3, for example).

There are certain answerers on Proz whom I've known since I joined some 14 years ago and, as far as I'm concerned, their answers not only carry much more weight than others, but can almost be considered "gospel", unless better evidence is (seldom) provided.

That said, even if their answers were anonymous, I'd be able to tell exactly who's answered what 99% of the time.

As Donal says, you're referring to but a few cases out of thousands - and I'm not even sure what you mean when you say they are "experts in the field".
For example, from the keywords section on your profile I'd be hard pushed to know what your fields of expertise are.


 
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