| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | English word "herefrom" in business agreements Thread poster: José Henrique Lamensdorf
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Chris S wrote:
Do you really think it's acceptable to knock a Lithuanian/Portuguese translator's English?
Not normally, but if they've been making assertions that I find offensive, about the presumed existence of some "International" version of the English language that equates to just getting away with *bad English that's full of mistakes*, then as a defender of good English, the language of Shakespeare, I can't just let that go.
I'm sure if I said in very bad Portuguese that my very bad Portuguese was an example of "International Portuguese" (the language of Pessoa, Saramago and Joao Gilberto), I would provoke analogous reactions in all those who love and defend the Portuguese language.
[Edited at 2016-01-29 10:15 GMT]
| | | | | International English??? | Jan 29, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: Chris S wrote:
Do you really think it's acceptable to knock a Lithuanian/Portuguese translator's English? Not normally, but if they've been making arrogant assertions about the presumed existence of some "International" version of the English language that equates to just getting away with *bad English that's full of mistakes*, then as a defender of good English, the language of Shakespeare, I can't just let that go.
What bugs me is that Microsoft Office has, indeed, among its spellchecking options, "International English". Who would speak this language? Who would WRITE it, to need a spellcheker, for crying out loud?
Canadian French is definitely different from its original version, at least for no longer requiring a calculator. Canadians can say 'huitante' (80) instead of 'quatre-vingts' (4x20). However to me Canadian English, at least in Toronto, sounds just like US English spoken much faster.
Why isn't there an Israeli English variant, like the one depicted in the movie Zohan? From my short experience, everybody there speaks it exactly like that, yet my Californian English in Israel was much more useful for communicating than in London, where not so many people understood it right away, nor spoke in a way that I could understand (I am Cockney-impaired).
I think that anyone offering translation into "International English" doesn't know enough about the language to do it. I originally learned EN-UK (THIS should surprise Inga more than my question here). My teacher for most of the time had been a BBC newscaster during WWII. In 1975 I completely shifted to EN-US in Los Angeles, and today I wouldn't be able to wing it in EN-UK to save my life, if I had to.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I am Cockney-impaired
You wot mate?
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Tom in London wrote:
as a defender of good English, the language of Shakespeare, I can't just let that go.
English is a wonderful language, it has a terrific rythm, cannot be destroyed, yes I agree with you.
BTW, I am not sure what "International English" is, I am going to do a research.
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Tim Friese 
United States
Local time: 13:00
Member (2013)
Arabic to English
+ ...
| Agree - this use of 'present' is translationese | Jan 29, 2016 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
Spanish legalese is built on and around "presente": "Por medio de la presente/por la presente" (referring to "carta", which may well be omitted).
I translate from English and only very occasionally have I ever encountered "present" in this context. English uses "this/said/mentioned/hereunder" and similar expressions.
I just wanted to second this point that this usage of 'present' is not the best legal English. Legal English tends to use phrases like 'hereunder' or 'under this agreement/contract/etc.'.
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 21:00
English to Russian
| Thank you Tim | Jan 29, 2016 |
Tim Friese wrote:
I just wanted to second this point that this usage of 'present' is not the best legal English. Legal English tends to use phrases like 'hereunder' or 'under this agreement/contract/etc.'
I was astonished at yesterday's links with 'present'...
But because they were left unargued by natives, I had to take it for granted.
Now I feel better — after your comment, my beliefs reinstate.
Thank you
| | | | Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
German to English
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
... as a defender of good English, the language of Shakespeare, I can't just let that go.
Aha, so you would be happy to write or say: "Nay, I prithee now, with most petitionary vehemence, tell me who it is." (As You Like It, Act 3, Scene 2 - Alexander text, 1951). (You were asking for that, weren't you!)
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Oliver Walter wrote: Tom in London wrote:
... as a defender of good English, the language of Shakespeare, I can't just let that go.
Aha, so you would be happy to write or say: "Nay, I prithee now, with most petitionary vehemence, tell me who it is." ( As You Like It, Act 3, Scene 2 - Alexander text, 1951). (You were asking for that, weren't you!)
No. More like this:
That time of year thou may'st in me behold
When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
In me thou see'st the twilight of such day,
As after sunset fadeth in the west,
Which by-and-by black night doth take away,
Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
As the death-bed whereon it must expire
Consum'd with that which it was nourish'd by.
This thou perceivest, which makes thy love more strong,
To love that well which thou must leave ere long.
Can you feel it? Put on something like the "Layla Hathaway live" album, and move with the iambic pentameter. Shakespeare continues to have the magic.
[Edited at 2016-01-29 15:47 GMT]
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Tim Friese wrote: Merab Dekano wrote:
Spanish legalese is built on and around "presente": "Por medio de la presente/por la presente" (referring to "carta", which may well be omitted).
I translate from English and only very occasionally have I ever encountered "present" in this context. English uses "this/said/mentioned/hereunder" and similar expressions. I just wanted to second this point that this usage of 'present' is not the best legal English. Legal English tends to use phrases like 'hereunder' or 'under this agreement/contract/etc.'.
Tim is correct, and my apologies Stepan. I should have answered in more detail--I've never used "present" myself in this manner, and I wouldn't be likely to use it in a translation of mine. My point is that it appears to have been used in the past, and so speaking strictly from a grammatical/drafting precedent point of view, it could be used without being obviously incorrect.
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 20:00
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| Know all men by these presents... | Jan 29, 2016 |
.. that "Present(s)" used to be the norm.
| | | | | The challenge | Jan 29, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I am Cockney-impaired You wot mate?
These guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkyI-dlNmYo at times illustrate my toughest challenge in what is allegedly English.
Thay oir me woist fear wan I aff taw trainslayte veedeauw.
| | | | | International | Jan 29, 2016 |
What bugs me is that Microsoft Office has, indeed, among its spellchecking options, "International English". Who would speak this language? Who would WRITE it, to need a spellcheker, for crying out loud?
I cannot have an "informed opinion" about the English language. I could be "shot" here, and rightly so.
However, there is what we call "international Spanish". Some call it "neuter Spanish". Anyway, it's a language deprived from regionalisms ("vosotros", "vos sos", etc.) and that uses vocabulary that falls under "common denominator" across most of the Spanish speaking countries.
Obviously, nobody speaks that kind of language at home or with friends. In the UN they do. When I was doing my MA in translation, I had to go through it and work with texts that needed to be translated into "international Spanish".
And yes, spellchecking options do show it in Word, for example.
Look, it's really easy concept. In Spanish there different words to refer to the same thing. In the north of Spain (some villages of the Basque country, for example) peanuts is "casques". In most of the Iberian Peninsula they use "cacahuetes". In Canary Islands (still Spain) they use "manises". Some LATAM countries will have their own words. In "international Spanish" it's just about making sure that you say and write "cacahuetes", which is the most widespread and accepted option.
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Inga Petkelyte wrote: Can it be that this new term is deemed to replace "under" and "out of"? Some linguists see a difference between them so maybe this new word is seen as a problem solution? Ihave never used herefrom but now I feel tempted to warning: (popularity will increase  )
'From', 'out of' and 'under' 'this agreement' are not exactly the same things.
'From' makes the agreement the root cause, the source of the problem; such a cause cannot be too distant either.
'Out of' marks a similar but looser connection, with possibly more distance.
'Under' simply means the agreement governs; hence 'under this agreement' means 'within the sphere governed by this agreement'.
Google search for 'from or out of' returns approx. 270,000 hits.
Michael Newton wrote:
What about "henceforth"?
'Herefrom' deals with space rather, 'henceforth' deals with time. You could possibly use 'herefrom' in lieu of 'henceforth', but it wouldn't be the best of ideas.
Preston Decker wrote:
Most of the reading I've done on modern contract writing (although almost entirely by US authors), has suggested that the "here" and "there" words should only be used with great caution because they are somewhat ambiguous and archaic.
Archaic sure, but ambiguous? They're less ambiguous than what the plain-language movement has to offer. It's a matter of education also, to an extent. Educated people (no matter the level of their formal education), not necessarily in the autumn of their lives, continue to use compound pronouns occasionally in daily conversation, let alone in writing. The MTV generation can't even get their tenses right and making out the difference between 'they're' and 'their' taxes their brain reserves to the brim, so no wonder they experience a profound WTF moment when they see a piece of semi-advanced language like those.
[Edited at 2016-03-26 08:40 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-03-26 08:41 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-03-26 08:42 GMT]
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
herefrom, adv. Now rare.
Also 6 Sc. heirfra.
[f. as herefor, -fore adv. + from prep. Cf. Da. herfra.]
1.1 From this place; hence. Also, from this state or condition.
1596 Dalrymple tr. Leslie's Hist. Scot. I. 33 The boundes [L. trajectus] heirfra till Irland is only xvi. myles.
1679 J. Brown Life of Faith (1824) II. viii. 222 Shall we never be redeemed herefrom?
1839 J. Rogers Antipopopr... See more herefrom, adv. Now rare.
Also 6 Sc. heirfra.
[f. as herefor, -fore adv. + from prep. Cf. Da. herfra.]
1.1 From this place; hence. Also, from this state or condition.
1596 Dalrymple tr. Leslie's Hist. Scot. I. 33 The boundes [L. trajectus] heirfra till Irland is only xvi. myles.
1679 J. Brown Life of Faith (1824) II. viii. 222 Shall we never be redeemed herefrom?
1839 J. Rogers Antipopopr. xii. §6. 278 Power to deliver hereto, and to deliver herefrom.
1870 Morris Earthly Par. IV. 247 Over the mountain-passes that men see Herefrom, a town there is.
2.2 From this thing, fact, or circumstance; from this source.
1594 T. B. La Primaud. Fr. Acad. ii. Ep. to Rdr. 3 The profite and commodity that issueth herefrom is great.
1602 Carew Cornwall ii. (1811) 248 Others‥may (perhaps) take some light herefrom to do the like.
1762 Phil. Trans. LII. 472 Herefrom, possibly, the‥proportional distances of the fixed stars may be essayed at.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *
wherefrom, adv. Now formal or arch.
(hwɛəˈfrɒm)
[f. where 15 + from prep.]
From which; whence.
1490 Caxton Eneydos xii. 45 There is the Region of thire, wherfrom we haue wythdrawen‥all this people.
1621 Sanderson Serm., 1 Cor. vii. 24 (1674) I. 205 Some Calling; wherefrom he may be altogether averse, and whereto altogether unfit.
1768 Tucker Lt. Nat. (1834) II. 40 We have none others wherefrom to describe anything conceivable to our imagination.
1837 Carlyle Fr. Rev. I. iv. iv, Lofty galleries; wherefrom dames of honour‥may sit and look.
1865 Kingsley Herew. xvi, Wherefrom Hereward opined that Gilbert had need of him.
1893 J. Caird Fundam. Ideas Chr. vii, Akin to the infinite source wherefrom they proceed.
(Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition on CD-ROM; 2009 - v. 4.0)
[Edited at 2016-03-26 10:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:00
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| also seen it written as "here from" | Mar 26, 2016 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: My question concerns herefrom. Example: "The court XXX has been mutually elected to resolve any dispute arising herefrom." I hope it is as crystal-clear to everyone, as it is for me, disputes arsing from the very document where that's written on. However no spellchecker accepts "herefrom", and I only found Collins dictionary endorsing it, though as archaic (perhaps in the sense of "from now on"). Linguee, though not a reliable source for translation, is a good tool to detect word usage, and it found "herefrom" being used in English relatively often, always in business agreements, nowhere else. URLs shown are both English-speaking and likely translations into English done in other countries. I'd like your opinion on whether it is valid/acceptable to use "herefrom" to refer, in an agreement, to anything arising/resulting "from that very same document".
Incidentally, I have also seen it written as:
"The court XXX has been mutually elected to resolve any dispute arising here from."
rather than:
"The court XXX has been mutually elected to resolve any dispute arising herefrom."
Michael
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