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Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers?
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Jan Truper
Jan Truper  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:34
Member (2016)
English to German
percentage threshold feature? Jan 5, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why shouldn't Proz.com be able to simply take away the option of posting rates and rate ranges from posters?


I actually like it when outsourcers post rates. It's one of the first things I look for, since it helps me sort out right away if an ad is worthy of a reply.
The vast majority of job ads on Proz are a complete waste of my time in this regard, but I don't think omitting rate info will change that fact.


Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... we are warned many times that 80% of translators/outsources (posting rates - see my earlier post) charge/pay more than what is stated in the job post.


I would like a feature that allows me to use such percentage information to define a threshold for jobs that are presented to me. That way I could filter out the low-paying junk automatically.
For example, I would only want to see ads that are in the top 40% range.
With such a feature, outsourcers would have to offer acceptable rates right off the bat if they wanted their ad to reach "professional" translators.


 
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 15:34
English to German
In memoriam
That's more like it Jan 5, 2017

Jan Truper wrote:
I actually like it when outsourcers post rates. It's one of the first things I look for, since it helps me sort out right away if an ad is worthy of a reply.
The vast majority of job ads on Proz are a complete waste of my time in this regard, but I don't think omitting rate info will change that fact.


Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
... we are warned many times that 80% of translators/outsources (posting rates - see my earlier post) charge/pay more than what is stated in the job post.


I would like a feature that allows me to use such percentage information to define a threshold for jobs that are presented to me. That way I could filter out the low-paying junk automatically.
For example, I would only want to see ads that are in the top 40% range.
With such a feature, outsourcers would have to offer acceptable rates right off the bat if they wanted their ad to reach "professional" translators.




Good ideas. I think the whole story could be addressed better by forcing every job poster to specify a rate, or at least a minimum rate for the job. This would make it much easier to weed out the bottom fishers.

@Bernhard, what you essentially want to do is to get rid of the market mechanics, and this won't work. Everything boils down to the fact that prices will go down when there is more supply than demand, and vice versa. (My experience, by the way, is that the EN>DE market has more demand than supply at the moment, so I really don't see much reason to complain). The main problem is that clients and even agencies often are not aware of the quality differences or even don't care for quality: let's face it, many clients don't ask for perfection, they ask for speed and quantity and the quality only has to be sufficient for their audience and their particular purpose. There are different quality segments in the market even if no one will admit it.


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:34
English to German
Maybe I am naive, but... Jan 5, 2017

I appreciate, when they indicate that they want cheap, so I can filter these posts and don't waste my time.

Then again, outsources will try to maximise their profit, who can blame them, but I assume that they would look for the best translator for their jobs at the best price, which will probably not be the cheapest.

I feel there has been an improvement in my language pair over the last couple of years, when I first came here there were lots of Indian agencies and simil
... See more
I appreciate, when they indicate that they want cheap, so I can filter these posts and don't waste my time.

Then again, outsources will try to maximise their profit, who can blame them, but I assume that they would look for the best translator for their jobs at the best price, which will probably not be the cheapest.

I feel there has been an improvement in my language pair over the last couple of years, when I first came here there were lots of Indian agencies and similar posting silly jobs, and I wondered whether I was wasting my time here, as it appeared the same as on some of these unprofessional sites where people do jobs for a few pennies.

But I think it would be a good idea if Proz did something to indicate to outsources that it is a professional site.
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Annamaria Amik
Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:34
Romanian to English
+ ...
Not the low-rate vent again! Jan 5, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Chris S wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I am not talking about that.


Silly me, I understood the post title to mean that you wanted to stop getting unreasonable requests from outsourcers.


If everyone knew what cheap is and would have only requests delivered to their email that fit their stated rate, it might already be an improvement. But many don't know or don't want to know what a reasonable rate is.


Reasonable for whom? For someone who lives in the US and pays a rent of $1000-1500 or for someone who lives in Eastern Europe and pays a rent of $300? Maybe if US/Western dentists and physicians complained all the time on forums about the low rates of their Eastern colleagues, they would eventually prevent medical tourism...

Even better: maybe our laws should forbid local companies to procure their raw materials from (even) cheaper countries or to have their products manufactured there.

This is absurd. As long as there are striking differences between the costs of living, there will be striking differences between the cost of services provided in those countries, as well.
Honestly, I really don't care that a Western colleague needs to make a few thousand bucks a month to enjoy the lovely standards I am enjoying at half the cost in my lovely cheap country (FYI: my rates are at least twice as high as the local rates).

[Edited at 2017-01-05 13:10 GMT]


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:34
Member (2004)
English to Italian
the reason why... Jan 5, 2017

the rate is not shown anymore (in most cases) is because it was seen as giving a false image of our profession... i.e. that low rates are the norm, when they are not. But if you keep publishing them on a high traffic website for translators like ProZ, then they slowly become accepted, because they are the only visible rates... if this makes selecting an outsourcer more difficult, so be it... I'm happy with it.

[Edited at 2017-01-05 13:07 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:34
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not venting Jan 5, 2017

Annamaria Amik wrote:

...

Reasonable for whom? For someone who lives in the US and pays a rent of $1000-1500 or for someone who lives in Eastern Europe and pays a rent of $300? Maybe if US/Western dentists and physicians complained all the time on forums about the low rates of their Eastern colleagues, they would eventually prevent medical tourism...

Even better: maybe our laws should forbid local companies to procure their raw materials from (even) cheaper countries or to have their products manufactured there.

This is absurd. As long as there are striking differences between the costs of living, there will be striking differences between the cost of services provided in those countries, as well.
Honestly, I really don't care that a Western colleague needs to make a few thousand bucks a month to enjoy the lovely standards I am enjoying at half the cost in my lovely cheap country (FYI: my rates are at least twice as high as the local rates).

[Edited at 2017-01-05 13:10 GMT]


I don't see it as venting, Annamaria. I see the situation as a real problem.

I see job boards like storefronts/show windows that advertise products. When the visitor sees only or mostly very low rates posted by the outsourcers, the impression can be manifold but not in our favor: posters are the ones deciding on a price, deciding what price they want to pay, mostly when they are going to pay etc, and foremost, it seems that's the norm and that's professional, which it isn't. The opposite is true. The translators should quote with their rate/price based on their reviews of the original texts and their assessment of the work involved and type and quality of service rendered, they should lay down the terms because they are the service providers and the outsourcers are their clients. If anything is absurd, it's this wrong understanding about who should determine rates and terms.

Let's not forget that we are the ones behind the storefront that Proz.com is. Why should we not care about the storefront?

And regarding reasonable rates. We all compete globally. I for example have customers in many different countries, and often the ones using the translations are large and established companies that are expanding. We are available globally - I have clients on four continents and when it comes to working with agencies, I am reasonable and people can educate themselves what reasonable means for a translator working over the internet and being available. 5 cents per word is not reasonable in any language combination.


[Edited at 2017-01-05 14:29 GMT]


 
SusieSmith
SusieSmith
United Kingdom
I completely agree with these suggestions Jan 5, 2017

Personally, I very rarely use Proz to look for jobs because of all these dodgy outsourcers who want their documents translated for pennies. I am not interested in working for them and wonder if they even bother to pay their translators at all.

It really does cheapen the whole job board. I don't know who these people are accepting the poorly paid jobs but they must be desperate. Do they produce quality work? I can't see how - yet this strange sweatshop situation continues so it must
... See more
Personally, I very rarely use Proz to look for jobs because of all these dodgy outsourcers who want their documents translated for pennies. I am not interested in working for them and wonder if they even bother to pay their translators at all.

It really does cheapen the whole job board. I don't know who these people are accepting the poorly paid jobs but they must be desperate. Do they produce quality work? I can't see how - yet this strange sweatshop situation continues so it must be working somehow.

I find professional, well-paying clients elsewhere.
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:34
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not a matter of market mechanism Jan 5, 2017

Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:


Good ideas. I think the whole story could be addressed better by forcing every job poster to specify a rate, or at least a minimum rate for the job. This would make it much easier to weed out the bottom fishers.


You're not going to weed out any bottom fishers. They will simply continue to do the same, even with more vigor. It's just that you don't see it.

Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
@Bernhard, what you essentially want to do is to get rid of the market mechanics, and this won't work. Everything boils down to the fact that prices will go down when there is more supply than demand, and vice versa. (My experience, by the way, is that the EN>DE market has more demand than supply at the moment, so I really don't see much reason to complain). The main problem is that clients and even agencies often are not aware of the quality differences or even don't care for quality: let's face it, many clients don't ask for perfection, they ask for speed and quantity and the quality only has to be sufficient for their audience and their particular purpose. There are different quality segments in the market even if no one will admit it.


No one wants to get rid of the market mechanism. This is no market mechanism. Markets are usually regulated or professions are established enough so their members don't undercut each other so much that they'll end up at ridiculous prices. No professional will stoop that low. But when I present myself and pay for advertisement on a site, I'd like the site to reflect what I and many others stand for. But the site needs our input to understand our perspective.

You might not have any reason to complain, that's fine. But I am trying to raise awareness of consequences I do see for the profession or at least for how we are perceived here at this site (see my previous post).
And as far as quality is concerned, cheap offers usually also demand quality. Check them out.

[Edited at 2017-01-05 14:27 GMT]


 
MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:34
French to English
+ ...
Totally agree Jan 5, 2017

Very well put. I find this recurring argument mildly ridiculous.

Not to mention that for some translators, 0.05 USD / word comes out to about 50 dollars an hour, which is more than what most people post as their hourly rate. Cost of living / country of residence is a factor but so are things such as the type of material, the translator's translation speed and so on. I think ultimately the real criteria is how much you can make per hour. Someone who works on incredibly difficult mat
... See more
Very well put. I find this recurring argument mildly ridiculous.

Not to mention that for some translators, 0.05 USD / word comes out to about 50 dollars an hour, which is more than what most people post as their hourly rate. Cost of living / country of residence is a factor but so are things such as the type of material, the translator's translation speed and so on. I think ultimately the real criteria is how much you can make per hour. Someone who works on incredibly difficult material and is slower to begin with needs to make more per word than someone working on easier material who is a very fast translator in order to come out with the same hourly rate.

Personally, I would like to see 2 things right off the bat: word count and rate range. Opening up an email and clicking on a link only to find out it's a 100-word job is a waste of my time. As for rates, I tend to just dismiss posts from certain countries. That's just the way it is. A lot of translators are happy to bid for jobs from those countries, and I don't think it is anybody else's business to tell them they shouldn't be doing that.



Annamaria Amik wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Chris S wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I am not talking about that.


Silly me, I understood the post title to mean that you wanted to stop getting unreasonable requests from outsourcers.


If everyone knew what cheap is and would have only requests delivered to their email that fit their stated rate, it might already be an improvement. But many don't know or don't want to know what a reasonable rate is.


Reasonable for whom? For someone who lives in the US and pays a rent of $1000-1500 or for someone who lives in Eastern Europe and pays a rent of $300? Maybe if US/Western dentists and physicians complained all the time on forums about the low rates of their Eastern colleagues, they would eventually prevent medical tourism...

Even better: maybe our laws should forbid local companies to procure their raw materials from (even) cheaper countries or to have their products manufactured there.

This is absurd. As long as there are striking differences between the costs of living, there will be striking differences between the cost of services provided in those countries, as well.
Honestly, I really don't care that a Western colleague needs to make a few thousand bucks a month to enjoy the lovely standards I am enjoying at half the cost in my lovely cheap country (FYI: my rates are at least twice as high as the local rates).

[Edited at 2017-01-05 13:10 GMT]


[Edited at 2017-01-05 14:46 GMT]
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Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:34
German to English
Could lead to more wasted time Jan 5, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

[snip]
My suggestion to Proz.com: Completely do away with the option for posters to post rates or rate ranges. And let's get rid of the silly asking for best rates (and other variations of it) as well.



I understand your dissatisfaction with rates posted, but eliminating the option to list a rate would lead to more wasted time, on the part of both the translator and outsourcer. I would not want to apply for an assignment offering my usual rate* when the poster was expecting to pay a only few cents per word. If I were looking for work here, I'd want to know upfront whether I'd be wasting my time.

However, there is some clever logic behind your proposal. If outsourcers wishing to pay 4 cents/word were to be deluged with dozens of offers asking for, say 14 cents per word, they might stop posting jobs at Proz.

* Most of the non-insulting rates offered here are 3/4 to 2/3 of my usual rate. I've applied for only 2 jobs since I started visiting Proz. For one I offered half my usual rate because I thought the project was for a good cause.


 
Annamaria Amik
Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:34
Romanian to English
+ ...
Reasonable is a very ambiguous term Jan 5, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
We are available globally - I have clients on four continents and when it comes to working with agencies, I am reasonable and people can educate themselves what reasonable means for a translator working over the internet and being available. 5 cents per word is not reasonable in any language combination.


Like I said: reasonable for whom? Reasonable is what you can do without excessive efforts. Your rate is reasonable if working for 7-8 hours per day, including administration, on working days allows you to enjoy a quality of life that people generally consider reasonable where you live. 5 cents is low for my expensive tastes, but it is more than reasonable for most translators in my country. Why? Because average wage here is about $600 and minimum wage is $300. I'm pretty sure both are much higher in the US - how is that reasonable? Is it reasonable that one country's minimum wage is close to luxury in another country?

Living in a low-cost country is just another competitive edge some translators have. They would be stupid not to leverage it, if you ask me.

Let's talk figures, then: you mentioned 5 cents. I'm not saying a translator will be able to translate the average 2000-2500 words every single working day, simply because demand may be less than that. But 1300-1500 w/day is at least the average for almost all professional translators I know here. Meaning that an established translator does get purchase orders amounting to this wordcount. That means at least $1400 gross/month, minus 30% minimum mandatory contributions (health and social) and taxes, which leaves them $1000 net. That's pretty (very!) high for an average intellectual here, it's almost twice the average wage. Why on earth should they charge more at the cost of not getting that much work? Simply because the amount is way too small for their colleague in the US?

If you insist on thinking global, you also have to admit that the cost of living in other countries may be half of yours. From my point of view:
1) what I NEED to make to enjoy the life I want to enjoy +
2) the effort I'm WILLING to put in to earn that
are pretty much the only criteria for me.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:34
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Why 5 Cents per word are not adequate Jan 5, 2017

MK2010 wrote:

Very well put. I find this recurring argument mildly ridiculous.

Not to mention that for some translators, 0.05 USD / word comes out to about 50 dollars an hour, which is more than what most people post as their hourly rate. Cost of living / country of residence is a factor but so are things such as the type of material, the translator's translation speed and so on. I think ultimately the real criteria is how much you can make per hour. Someone who works on incredibly difficult material and is slower to begin with needs to make more per word than someone working on easier material who is a very fast translator in order to come out with the same hourly rate.


I don't share your view that 5 Cents is adequate. A certain rate for a project, and for that matter a total price based on such per-word rate, relates to the type of work/service provided with regard to every aspect of the project. As I said elsewhere, we are not cheap laborers. I believe that your statement of "5 Cents a word comes out to about 50 Dollars" is ignoring those facts completely. A quote per-word doesn't only relate to how much it comes out to per hour, it's a traditional method to charge adequately for a project. That means not only does that rate have to reflect the time invested but also needs to take into account the skill and knowledge of the translator and many other factors, such as the speed with which the service is rendered, the quality provided, etc. How much does a mechanic make, how much does a lawyer make per hour? There's a reason for that. Once circumstances are such that the price paid does not reflect the skill level and effort put into the project, it becomes pointless for a professional to render such services. I would suggest you read an article published by Proz.com about how to arrive at a fair rate for what you deliver (see link below). And your distinction between difficult and easy material is a very general one. Yes, it's probably easier to translate "easy texts", but often what is perceived as an easy text becomes more difficult when the right words are needed, and not just a plain translation.
5 Cents per word are not adequate. Ask any professional translator.

See: http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Determining_your_rates_and_fees_as_a_translator


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
False globality (?!) Jan 5, 2017

Annamaria Amik wrote:

Lots



You make some good points there, but remember not many translators to/from Bernard's languages live in low-cost countries, and certainly very few to/from my languages. Yet someone somewhere must presumably be accepting all these 3 cents a word jobs from Chindia offered here. And logically even if they do live in a low-cost country they are only accepting these low rates because they're not good enough to compete for better-paying work and so shouldn't be represented on a "professional" site. Is what I think the argument is.


 
Annamaria Amik
Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:34
Romanian to English
+ ...
Adequate is a very ambiguous term Jan 5, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
5 Cents per word are not adequate. Ask any professional translator.


A translator living where? Every translator's costs are determined by the LOCAL conditions where he lives.

I think that only regional/local comparisons make sense. A Romanian translator charging 2 cents is unreasonable - working full time, they simply can't make a living here, charging those rates. A Romanian translator charging 5 cents is reasonable - they can enjoy a really comfortable living with that money, assuming that they work full time, 7-8 hours a day.

Here in my country, intellectuals in prestigious positions earn much-much less than that. A highschool teacher with some years of service and experience makes about $400. Those with no prior experience earn even less than that. So why exactly is it unreasonable for such a teacher to leave the school system, start translating at 5 cents, work a reasonable number of hours and make 3x of what he would make as a teacher?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:34
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Global perspective is important Jan 5, 2017

Annamaria Amik wrote:

...

Living in a low-cost country is just another competitive edge some translators have. They would be stupid not to leverage it, if you ask me.


Yes, with regard to people who charge similar low rates.

Annamaria Amik wrote:
Let's talk figures, then: you mentioned 5 cents. I'm not saying a translator will be able to translate the average 2000-2500 words every single working day, simply because demand may be less than that. But 1300-1500 w/day is at least the average for almost all professional translators I know here. Meaning that an established translator does get purchase orders amounting to this wordcount. That means at least $1400 gross/month, minus 30% minimum mandatory contributions (health and social) and taxes, which leaves them $1000 net. That's pretty (very!) high for an average intellectual here, it's almost twice the average wage. Why on earth should they charge more at the cost of not getting that much work? Simply because the amount is way too small for their colleague in the US?


Your example relates to certain wages paid in your country - those are wages for employees of companies or the state in a full-time job. I am an independent business man, and yes, in the US. $1000.00 here per month is absolutely ridiculous. Nothing is guaranteed, I am on my own to attract business and make the money I need and deserve to make.
But you and I are offering our services to the world. I am sure you don't think that because the outsourcer is in a low-cost country and you live in a low-cost country, you have to charge low rates to be competitive. I know you don't because you said so. But what if that's what other translators think they have to do. Why? Maybe because to them, it's the only means to a job? If that's what they are thinking, I can't help that. But I don't think that way. I know I am worth more and I deserve it, at least for translating. Don't you agree? Excellent translations from and into Romanian for global players deserve globally acceptable prices. Check Proz.coms rate list, based on rates reported by translators and agencies: http://search.proz.com/?sp=pfe/rates (I find the standard rates there are a good start to improving things)


We both are global players if you will. And on the global market, we all compete with each other. And the more people realize that, the better. Thinking that one must try to stick with low rates to make ends meet and to compete with others is faulty thinking IMO. The article I mentioned and linked to above and below addresses this as well.
And don't forget, I am mainly concerned about what outsourcers display on job boards and even in their emails (and those cheap outsourcers come from everywhere, not just low-cost countries), and they all want it for close to 5 Cents or even less). I think it isn't good for any of us to have this going on. That's why I suggested my solution. It's a suggestion. It all comes down to what individual translators really want. I can merely discuss certain issues. I am aware of that. But each of us will decide for themselves on how to deal with this particular issue.

Annamaria Amik wrote:
If you insist on thinking global, you also have to admit that the cost of living in other countries may be half of yours. From my point of view:
1) what I NEED to make to enjoy the life I want to enjoy +
2) the effort I'm WILLING to put in to earn that
are pretty much the only criteria for me.


I am no expert on income and expenses in your country. It would certainly be easier if we all made similar amounts of money, if living standards would be similar, and situations in low-cost countries would improve for all people there. That surely is the goal of all people in your country and it should be the goal of your government. Your country is not a rich country but it is part of the EU. As such, it has joined the world market as EU member. Just like we joined the global translation services market as individuals, competing with other global players everywhere, not individuals who continue to drag down our rates from low-cost countries (you are excluded, obviously). I am not working in your language group, but for my own language directions, I need to make sure that standards don't degrade but improve because otherwise I certainly wouldn't be able to continue as a translator. And the more I make, the better it is, not just for me, but for the economy in general.
I am willing to compete fairly. I am not willing to provide intellectual work for a pittance. I think that we should be the ones setting the standards for rates and we should not simply be seeing what we see on job boards today.

From the article I mentioned earlier:
http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Determining_your_rates_and_fees_as_a_translator

"Notwithstanding the above discussion, which represents the true, ideal position we should be taking, there are many agencies who are coming back to the translator after having received the quote and asking for a slight reduction. "We have received your quote and would like to work with you but our job only pays 0,09 EUR per source word and your price of 0,12 EUR is too high". The best thing to do in this situation is run away as quickly as possible, or, better yet, try to insist on your original price. Perhaps this is the point where you bring out your big marketing guns and ammo that prove why you are worth what you are asking for. For example, "I am an expert in XYZ and I can provide a well researched and meaningful text."
Unfortunately, the reality is that more and more translators are acquiescing and agree too willingly to the lower rates just to get the work."



PS: As Chris S. hinted at, my argument is mainly with the fact that on a professional site that represents me to a certain degree, I would like not to see unreasonable demands from job posters. It casts a bad light on all of us - IMO.

[Edited at 2017-01-05 17:02 GMT]


 
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