| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers? Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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| Indeed, false globality | Jan 5, 2017 |
Chris S wrote:
And logically even if they do live in a low-cost country they are only accepting these low rates because they're not good enough to compete for better-paying work and so shouldn't be represented on a "professional" site. Is what I think the argument is.
Even if they are good enough to compete for better-paying work, living in a low-cost country gives them the extra advantage of being able to compete in price, as well - that's reality. 7 cents is low for a Western translator, but one living in a low-cost country can easily afford offering that rate.
Another thing I noticed here in my country is that it is the part-time translators who push the prices down, locally. While it irritates me that they welcome even a small extra income, my argument that they couldn't live with those rates if they worked full time simply doesn't impress them.
I don't agree that 5 cents is unreasonable because it's "unprofessional" - it's unreasonable for a Western translator because where he lives, an intellectual makes more than that and such a rate doesn't reflect the efforts and the years of costly education required to become a professional in his country.
I really don't think a translator would be worried about the prestige of his profession if the lower rate still allowed him to live extravagantly. Just like the question "how much does a teacher/programmer/software tester/doctor/lawyer earn" makes no sense outside the local context, the question "how much should a professional translator charge" can only be answered by assessing the local conditions of that professional translator.
| | | | | It does NOT matter where you live - if you think as a responsible business person | Jan 5, 2017 |
Annamaria Amik wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
5 Cents per word are not adequate. Ask any professional translator.
A translator living where? Every translator's costs are determined by the LOCAL conditions where he lives. I think that only regional/local comparisons make sense. A Romanian translator charging 2 cents is unreasonable - working full time, they simply can't make a living here, charging those rates. A Romanian translator charging 5 cents is reasonable - they can enjoy a really comfortable living with that money, assuming that they work full time, 7-8 hours a day. Here in my country, intellectuals in prestigious positions earn much-much less than that. A highschool teacher with some years of service and experience makes about $400. Those with no prior experience earn even less than that. So why exactly is it unreasonable for such a teacher to leave the school system, start translating at 5 cents, work a reasonable number of hours and make 3x of what he would make as a teacher?
Dear Annamaria,
It does NOT matter where you live. You are selling "the intellectual production of your brain via the internet". If you move to a country, where the minimum wage is less than where you are living now, would you lower your rates? If you do, then you are degrading yourself/your own expertise. The expertise what you have gained will be the same no matter where you live. We are selling our translation expertise via the internet, and the internet is global. We have clients from many different countries. If you had clients only from the country, where you are living now I may understand your point of view. It doesn't matter what is the minimum wage in the country where you are living. You are not an employee. You are business person. What matters: What is the rate of my knowledge? Am I a beginner or an expert? What does my intellectual production worth?
Just think about the following situation. There is a project with 22 languages. The project is done with translators from 22 different countries who are submitting their translations via the internet. There are no borders. Everybody receives the same job. What matters: the quality of your work. Do you really feel that your work worth less than the job of a person, who is living in a country with a higher minimum wage?
Or a similar situation: remote radiology service over the internet. Do you think that a radiologist will give different rates for his/her online consultation depending on which country he lives in? He is selling his expertise. He knows that his rates reflect his knowledge. He is not an employee. He is a business person, who "sells" his expertise.
A remote CRA (clinical research associate) will receive very similar hourly rates, no matter where she/he is living.
Katalin
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Katalin Szilárd wrote:
What matters: the quality of your work. Do you really feel that your work worth less than the job of a person, who is living in a country with a higher minimum wage?
Or a similar situation: remote radiology service over the internet. Do you think that a radiologist will give different rates for his/her online consultation depending on which country he lives in? He is selling his expertise. He knows that his rates reflect his knowledge. He is not an employee. He is a business person, who "sells" his expertise.
A remote CRA (clinical research associate) will receive very similar hourly rates, no matter where she/he is living.
Katalin
I could ask the same about programmers and software testers or even call center assistants. Many Western companies prefer to use the services of workers from cheaper countries simply because those people ask for lower rates than Western people.
I don't know about the medical profession, but I'm pretty sure you need to pay much more to a US dentist than a Hungarian dentist. Are they always more professional and offer better quality? No. That's the whole reason behind medical tourism. Quality is not the only factor that determines prices, costs are relevant, too.
I'm not saying people should charge as little as they can, quite the opposite. I only explained why even some very professional translators can afford a 7-cent rate, which is still low compared to the US, but a lot higher than what their local markets pay. There is a big difference between 7-8 cents and 3 cents.
As for your example about the 22 language project: unfortunately there are many agencies here that pay 0.1 for some of the language pairs, let's say DE-EN (at least judging from the fact that they got Blue Board ratings of 5 from translators who claim they charge 0.1 or more) and still offered 0.04 for my pair. When I refused, they said that was their budget "for that language pair"...
All I'm saying is that translators are free to determine their own prices and THEIR comfort (not their Western colleague's) should be the only factor when doing so. If an Indian or Chinese translator who never lived in a more expensive country is fine with 3 or 4 or 5 cents, leave him be. If he's good, demand will force him to raise his rates anyway.
| | | | | In translation sold over the internet there are no Eastern or Western rates | Jan 5, 2017 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
I don't know about the medical profession, but I'm pretty sure you need to pay much more to a US dentist than a Hungarian dentist. Are they always more professional and offer better quality? No. That's the whole reason behind medical tourism. Quality is not the only factor that determines prices, costs are relevant, too.
I gave examples for professions similar to our: remote radiologist (freelance radiologist who is working over the internet). Freelance CRA who is working over the internet. They are not employees of a company and they are working over the internet. A dentist doesn't work over the internet. His patients are not from different countries all over the world.
Annamaria Amik wrote: All I'm saying is that translators are free to determine their own prices and THEIR comfort (not their Western colleague's) should be the only factor when doing so. If an Indian or Chinese translator who never lived in a more expensive country is fine with 3 or 4 or 5 cents, leave him be. If he's good, demand will force him to raise his rates anyway.
In translation sold over the internet there are no Eastern and Western rates. Translators should determine their own prices, based on their expertise (how they feel their expertise worth).
[Edited at 2017-01-05 17:54 GMT]
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MK2010 
United States
Local time: 13:29
French to English
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| Why is it "degrading"? | Jan 5, 2017 |
Pricing a product takes into account a whole lot of factors, not just the quality or worth of the product itself: how much it costs to manufacture, package, transport, etc. Businesses spend a lot of time figuring out how to lower their prices in order to allure customers and still make a handsome profit.
I just got back from Whole Foods where I bought some organic spices in bulk. I put them in a ziplock sandwich bag and paid one fifth or one sixth --easily-- what they would cost if... See more Pricing a product takes into account a whole lot of factors, not just the quality or worth of the product itself: how much it costs to manufacture, package, transport, etc. Businesses spend a lot of time figuring out how to lower their prices in order to allure customers and still make a handsome profit.
I just got back from Whole Foods where I bought some organic spices in bulk. I put them in a ziplock sandwich bag and paid one fifth or one sixth --easily-- what they would cost if I bought them in a nice little glass jar with a label on it at the supermarket. Anyone who buys spices from a supermarket is paying for that jar, not the actual product inside the jar that they are going to use to season their food.
If a translator can afford to charge less because she lives in a country where life is more affordable and the "packaging" costs next to nothing, and charging less gives her a competitive edge and attracts more business, then she should go for it.
Katalin Szilárd wrote:
Dear Annamaria,
It does NOT matter where you live. You are selling "the intellectual production of your brain via the internet". If you move to a country, where the minimum wage is less than where you are living now, would you lower your rates? If you do, then you are degrading yourself/your own expertise.
Katalin
▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 13:29
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER | Highly sophisticated work must always have its adequate price ... | Jan 5, 2017 |
... because if the price is completely eroded, it's simply a waste of one's mind.
MK2010 wrote:
Pricing a product takes into account a whole lot of factors, not just the quality or worth of the product itself: how much it costs to manufacture, package, transport, etc. Businesses spend a lot of time figuring out how to lower their prices in order to allure customers and still make a handsome profit.
It's us translators who should price the "product", not some agency that posts a ridiculous job offer - and yes, many variables go into it. I 'll repeat my points: I am not interested in having an impression continue that it is okay to demand unreasonable prices via job boards and I don't support it as a paying member of Proz.com. What you do and think is certainly your prerogative. But let's be fair, the jar story isn't really relatable to our business. When you sell your translation, you sell it in the same format as anyone else who would sell it, and you are selling your product on the world market.
MK2010 wrote:
If a translator can afford to charge less because she lives in a country where life is more affordable and the "packaging" costs next to nothing, and charging less gives her a competitive edge and attracts more business, then she should go for it.
He/she will then compete with other translators who also work for cheap and often dictated rates. I tried to point you to an article to emphasize how important it is to see the big picture. In any case, it doesn't take much to go from 5 Cents to 3 Cents. I am really "looking forward" to that competition. That won't be competition, that will be a joke and any discussion will be unnecessary.
[Edited at 2017-01-05 23:06 GMT]
| | | | | I love these discussions | Jan 6, 2017 |
.. they are always big fun and are leading nowhere.
I don't care much about word prices and I don't care much about competition. I actually help colleagues to get better jobs, I advise them on how to get better jobs and I provide (some free) training and lots of free resources (I prepared in my spare time).
And some of you might not be able to imagine it, my rates have (slowly but constantly) gone up, my productivity has gone up, the amount of money I earn per time unit... See more .. they are always big fun and are leading nowhere.
I don't care much about word prices and I don't care much about competition. I actually help colleagues to get better jobs, I advise them on how to get better jobs and I provide (some free) training and lots of free resources (I prepared in my spare time).
And some of you might not be able to imagine it, my rates have (slowly but constantly) gone up, my productivity has gone up, the amount of money I earn per time unit has gone up and I am contacted by more and more potential customers that are prepared to accept my conditions.
THE translation market does not exist, there are many markets and niches.
I am actually a farm boy and in farming you can find the same "globalization effects"
We have dairy farmers making €0.20 per liter milk and we have other farmers in our village making €1.50 per liter. The same applies to the prices of pork etc. Some of them are successuful, some don't understand the market and fail and some are constantly wailing and demanding external help or others to do something so that they don't have to reflect and change their own behaviour.
My reaction to these discussions is therefore "what is the real problem?"
Is the problem, that some of our colleagues do not understand that they are entrepreneurs?
Is it just a recurring marketing stunt to get some visibility?
What is it that triggers these discussions?
[Edited at 2017-01-06 06:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's not my problem, just a discussion | Jan 6, 2017 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
Is the problem, that some of our colleagues do not understand that they are entrepreneurs?
Yes, but it's not my problem.
But sharing my thoughts may lead to open up the eyes of others.
[Edited at 2017-01-06 07:35 GMT]
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| One constantly recurring aspect: | Jan 6, 2017 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
My reaction to these discussions is therefore "what is the real problem?"
One of the "real" problems for every business everywhere in the world are suppliers or "market participants" who don´t pay taxes and social insurances at all, who moreover regard our kind of business as temporary (i.e. students who finance their backpacker trip to or even in third world countries) and can therefore afford to undercut almost every price (and even quality standards).
Working as a freelance translator doesn´t make you awfully rich, but can support your very own existence (and perhaps the existence of your family) without the need of taking side jobs. This model is endangered by the mentioned type of "colleagues" and outsourcers, who foster them.
[Edited at 2017-01-06 07:59 GMT]
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Katalin Szilárd wrote:
It's not my problem.
This was my impression already
But sharing my thoughts may lead to open up the eyes of others.
this is what I am hoping for, but I never saw it happen in any forum discussion on ProZ.
I have seen it happening after intensive coaching and discussing, but this is rare.
I do remember well when I got convinced (actually by Prof. Koehn, one of the fathers of MT/Moses) that I is me and only me who is responsible for my success and that sharing does neither harm me nor empower my competitors.
| | | | | Undercut almost every price (and even quality standards) | Jan 6, 2017 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
.. who moreover regard our kind of business as temporary (i.e. students who finance their backpacker trip to or even in third world countries) and can therefore afford to undercut almost every price (and even quality standards).
There is no real competion in my niche by amateurs, not getting the right quality could be too expensive for my clients.
This is the reason why I keep telling everybody:
Find your niche, become the expert in your field and you should be fine.
I am not blind, I do see various threats for certain market segments in our industry, but this does not mean that translators are not free to take business decisions to take them into safer waters.
| | | | | Nobody is immune | Jan 6, 2017 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
There is no real competion in my niche by amateurs, not getting the right quality could be too expensive for my clients.
This is the reason why I keep telling everybody:
Find your niche, become the expert in your field and you should be fine.
That is my approach, and so far it has worked out.
But... there is still a trickle-down (-up?) effect from the low end in other language pairs.
There is no Third World competition in my languages. There is probably still the same number of translators chasing the same number of jobs as before. Yet prices have plummeted. Most agencies are no longer willing or able to pay me what they happily paid me a decade ago.
So now I work more for direct clients. While they pay well, there are also all kinds of drawbacks, and I'd much rather work through agents.
25 years ago agencies were run by translators and sold themselves on providing the best quality. Now they are run by investors and it is all about price.
It's one big rush to the bottom, with agencies winning government contracts by quoting less than I charge, delivering MT quality, attracting endless complaints - and then being awarded the next contract too. It's madness.
I sound like such an old fart. Time for work.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:29
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Unreasonable demands... on my time | Jan 6, 2017 |
[I haven't read any of the other posts in this thread -- I'm responding to the original post.]
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
This is one of those bad habits of most posters ... on the job board: asking for a rate before the translator has even seen the texts/documents to be translated/proofread/revised/edited etc.
After all the negotiations, previewing of files, signing of NDAs etc, the thing that usually makes or breaks the deal is the rate. No matter how sweet these other things are, if the rate is not acceptable, the job does not go through. Therefore it makes perfect sense from a time management perspective to talk about rates as soon as possible in the interaction with a client/translator. An initially proposed rate is not a binding quote, after all.
When we negotiate with humans in person, we use visual and auditive clues to determine whether or not negotiation is going well, whether there is sense in haggling further, and whether we should offer incentives to satisfy unspoken desires. It is somewhat more difficult to do so with someone from a different culture, but it's still possible to do. There are almost no such clues available in e-communication, and the standardised politenesses used in written communication mask most of what clues about the other party's intentions/eagerness remain.
I am not offended by "best rate" either. It is simply a freelancer convention for "if all that you currently know or think that you know about this project turns out to be true, what is the lowest offered rate that you would most likely accept without further discussion".
A rate range is also helpful for translators because it tells us a lot about the client. The lower rate is the rate that the client will grudgingly pay if he is only able to find a mediocre translator, and the higher rate is the rate that he believes he'll be willing to pay if you succeed in making a very good impression on him. And it's important to remember that that higher rate is actually a soft maximum -- clients are often willing to pay more than that, if you can convince/impress them.
[Edited at 2017-01-06 09:02 GMT]
| | | | | What is unreasonable? | Jan 6, 2017 |
To illustrate...
Some lawyers advise victims to refrain from labeling it as "rape" when the perp is wealthy enough to afford some exorbitant alimony for the resulting offspring.
Few women label it as "sexual harassment" when the perp is an Adonis-like figure.
So "unreasonable", in spite of its objective root, may become a subjective label. What is "unreasonable" for a well-established and successful translator may be manna from heaven for a beginner, no mat... See more To illustrate...
Some lawyers advise victims to refrain from labeling it as "rape" when the perp is wealthy enough to afford some exorbitant alimony for the resulting offspring.
Few women label it as "sexual harassment" when the perp is an Adonis-like figure.
So "unreasonable", in spite of its objective root, may become a subjective label. What is "unreasonable" for a well-established and successful translator may be manna from heaven for a beginner, no matter how much academically prepared or not, who hasn't developed a clientele yet.
Considering the ubiquity of translation caused by the Internet - i.e. without leaving Sao Paulo I serve clients from Sydney eastbound all the way to Istanbul - I can see a host of factors that may influence how "reasonable" a translation request is, depending on who - and especially where - the 'perp' will be.
In order to clarify this point, I know colleagues who can deliver the very same service I do in Sao Paulo, located in North America and Western Europe. The result is that what is unreasonable for them, there, might be quite reasonable for me, here.
So, where should we draw the line on what's reasonable?
Let's consider two metrics...
Bare rates - Considering exchange rates, I can command somewhat lower translation rates in USD/EUR in Brazil than my peers up North.
Payment terms - Considering their local interest rates, my Northern peers can accept payment in 30 or 60 days without having their income visibly compromised. Interest rates in Brazil (Argentina, and a few others) per MONTH are close to those up North per YEAR, hence delayed payment down here represents a significant loss for translators.
Therefore a translation outsourcer having a thin margin/markup will reasonably prefer hiring a translator in Brazil or Argentina and pay them quickly. Meanwhile an undercapitalized one, having its cash flow impaired, will reasonably resort to translators living in countries where the time to build up enough funds to pay vendors doesn't cost so much.
Years ago I worked in compensation management. In three companies, I had the chance to implement or restore, from the ground up, a widely adopted salary management system (Hay) for white collars. My background in engineering rendered me fearless of math, so I developed a multiple-factor points system for blue collars in one of these companies.
I can see a number of factors at play that determine what would be the reasonable (i.e. market average) rate for a specific translation (evaluated on necessary skills, quality required depending on purpose, complexity involved, etc.) in a specific language pair, done by a translator located in a specific country, to build a system of equations.
While back in the mid-80s I built a computer program which then handled 22,000 entries for a similar purpose, it was obviously off-line, heavily manual... and using an Apple II. Now I don't have the programming and web power to develop something like it. Yet it might be a worthy endeavor.
The truth is that there is NO place one can go and, for instance, enter data like this:
- Translation FROM: Language A
- Translation INTO: Language B
- Requires at least: C years' experience in D / degree in E
- D is a (low/mid/high) complexity/specialization subject area
- Source file is: DOC/X file
- Target file is: Same
- Average words per day required: F
- Payment term: G
- Payment method: H
- Translator location (country): I
... maybe a few other info, and get:
"Statistically, considering our N finished translation jobs worldwide database, it would be reasonable to pay $ X per word for this project."
Bottom line is that "reasonable" is a reasonably subjective attribute. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 13:29
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: In order to clarify this point, I know colleagues who can deliver the very same service I do in Sao Paulo, located in North America and Western Europe. The result is that what is unreasonable for them, there, might be quite reasonable for me, here. So, where should we draw the line on what's reasonable? ... Bottom line is that "reasonable" is a reasonably subjective attribute.
Like I said,
Don't let posters post rates. Even though they are ignored by many, many will rush to simply accept them because it's the fastest thing to do to get the job.
A translator should be the one first suggesting a rate.
For fairly reasonable rates for professional services, post a link to the proz.com rates page: check out the standard rates there:
http://search.proz.com/?sp=pfe/rates
Have posters fill out a new form instead where they can specify what they want without the demands for rock bottom rates, best rate(and the like) and ridiculous payment terms.
With the rate/rate-range option taken away, the translator must make the effort to think about his/her proposal or at least Proz.com doesn't publicly display and indirectly support the cheap rates/jobs - a clear image boost for them and me (indirectly).
Now that should be reasonable.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Can we please do away with unreasonable requests from outsourcers? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
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