| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | PM says the agency paid, but can't prove, because she's new... Thread poster: Annamaria Amik
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Annamaria Amik 
Local time: 13:26
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
philgoddard wrote:
We're all disorganized sometimes, and it seems a shame to cut these people off if they've given you a thousand jobs - though you shouldn't be wasting your time issuing a hundred invoices a year.
Why not agree that you'll issue a new invoice for a notional amount representing approximately what they owe you?
Thanks everyone for the input.
That's exactly why I accepted this behavior so far - a few invoices that were accidentally skipped among hundreds of others were surely just a sign of inadequate organization.
@Alexandra
Thanks for sharing what this looks like from the other side I'm pretty sure this client, too, charges the end clients the minimum fee - sometimes they expect the translators to charge the per-word rate or even do those tiny ones for free.
@Samuel
I haven't looked into deducting this sum. I don't think I can. Since I'm doing single-entry bookkeeping, I only recognize income when I actually receive it - since I haven't received this income, I don't have to recognize it or pay tax. At least I have this e-mail correspondence showing that I haven't received the money "off the books" and that I tried collecting it.
Bookkeeping in their country is subject to much stricter rules than in English-speaking countries. They must have absolutely clear records of every invoice they received, as well as the date when they paid it and the instrument by which they paid. They must post this information to specific accounts in the general ledger and must report them clearly in the subledgers. The PM's simply refusing to react to my suggestion to check the books (something as simple as taking a folder off the shelves) makes me think something's not right with their bookkeeping...
@Sheila
In fifteen years of work, which means about 6000 projects handled successfully, I never had one instance of payment issue, so I'm sure it's not my internal procedure itself that needs correcting. However, I did learn that I shouldn't be more patient with a client simply because they are long-standing. I suppose it's exactly that long business relationship why I shouldn't let any inaccuracies interfere with the success of our collaboration!
This case was a real eye opener - it is not the amount itself. The problem is that they refuse to pay even the invoices they do admit they can see in their system and find no proof of payment for. This combined with their absurd expectation to get separate invoices, but no minimum fee, and the numerous "favors" they asked made it clear that it was time to drop them. I have been considering this for quite a while now, and turned down many jobs from them lately, simply because of the nuisance the administration has become. They weren't like this ten years ago, their project management turned bad only about three years ago.
Thanks again for your valuable comments
| | | | | Just a thought ... | Feb 4, 2017 |
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "drop them", but since you have nothing to lose and something to gain, I think you ought to present them with a politely phrased, but take-it-or-leave-it offer about what it would take for you to keep working with them.
I would tell them they need to pay all the outstanding invoices or I'm sorry, but I won't be able to work with them any longer. I would then tell them that you have been with them for a long time and would like to continue worki... See more I am not sure exactly what you mean by "drop them", but since you have nothing to lose and something to gain, I think you ought to present them with a politely phrased, but take-it-or-leave-it offer about what it would take for you to keep working with them.
I would tell them they need to pay all the outstanding invoices or I'm sorry, but I won't be able to work with them any longer. I would then tell them that you have been with them for a long time and would like to continue working with them, but you cannot spend time invoicing every tiny project separately. Maybe offer to invoice them on a monthly or quarterly basis and include the project numbers or titles or whatever would be most helpful to them in each position. Tell them you would then be willing to compromise and not charge them a minimum fee for each project (if that really would be an acceptable solution for you).
You might be surprised at the results and, in terms of investing time in acquiring clients, nothing beats converting a client that is no longer viable into a fully acceptable one. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Annamaria Amik
Local time: 13:26
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Difficult decision | Feb 4, 2017 |
Michael Wetzel wrote:
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "drop them", but since you have nothing to lose and something to gain, I think you ought to present them with a politely phrased, but take-it-or-leave-it offer about what it would take for you to keep working with them.
I would tell them they need to pay all the outstanding invoices or I'm sorry, but I won't be able to work with them any longer. I would then tell them that you have been with them for a long time and would like to continue working with them, but you cannot spend time invoicing every tiny project separately. Maybe offer to invoice them on a monthly or quarterly basis and include the project numbers or titles or whatever would be most helpful to them in each position. Tell them you would then be willing to compromise and not charge them a minimum fee for each project (if that really would be an acceptable solution for you).
You might be surprised at the results and, in terms of investing time in acquiring clients, nothing beats converting a client that is no longer viable into a fully acceptable one.
Thanks for the suggestion, Michael.
I've been thinking about this, too. But honestly, after all those e-mails in which I explained clearly that I expect them to send me the payment ID for the jobs they said could still check in their system (and they didn't), I really don't see how they would react differently if I phrased my request as an ultimatum. The whole e-mail correspondence was tragicomical, the PM simply refusing to reply to my (clear) suggestions and doing something completely different that I never asked and wasn't helpful at all - honestly, I got the impression she was a bit dense.
Right now I am just sick of them and I've been so even before this incident, which was only the last drop.
I think I will still give them an opportunity to make amends and ask them to pay all the outstanding invoices AND prove that with the last sub-ledger that is an actual, inspection-proof evidence that there are no outstanding invoices, and we'll discuss the other details afterwards. If they are not willing to do this, no point in continuing at all.
Thanks again!
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 06:26
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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Looking the title "PM says the agency paid, but can't prove, because she's new..." I cannot help but ask: "why didn't you ask to talk to his supervisor or someone in charge of the company's accounting department?"
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MikeTrans
Germany
Local time: 12:26
Italian to German
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| It's sad to read the OP post, more often negligence is the cause | Feb 4, 2017 |
Hello Annamaria,
first let me say that I have very few 'good' clients that behave that way, our payment agreements are transparent, the agencies I work for have specific payment regulations published on their websites and I would rate their business seriousness AAA all together. Anyhow... My experience in the last 20 years tell me that the main reason for delaying payment is pure negligence. The first thing you should check if 'suddenly' the same agency has delaying payments: Did new PM st... See more Hello Annamaria,
first let me say that I have very few 'good' clients that behave that way, our payment agreements are transparent, the agencies I work for have specific payment regulations published on their websites and I would rate their business seriousness AAA all together. Anyhow... My experience in the last 20 years tell me that the main reason for delaying payment is pure negligence. The first thing you should check if 'suddenly' the same agency has delaying payments: Did new PM staff come in that are not yet familiar with internal practises? This may happen and so please be more tolerant.
I generally treat good and long-term clients in a special way, much more attentive to their needs, also accepting unusual tasks, but there is a precise point where my tolerance ends: payment time limit. Some agencies will pay me within 30 days, others within 60 days. I will often stick with that, but then these terms have to be kept, otherwise I will send reminders in very *regular* time frames. I cannot tell you more, but you'd better not read my last reminder...It's not a pleasure to read, wether you are a 'good' client or not. And you will likely not receive it by me and by e-mail.
It is very important to investigate wether there are 'cumbersome' reasons that may delay a payment, your first thought should be that there is *no* malicious intend for the delaying but other reasons - please accept that we all make erros once in awhile. But you can put it as you want: when it comes to payment, then all my sympathies are in the background - until I'm getting paid. I mean, that's the most important part of my business, and yours too, isn't it?
There are some very good articles on Proz.com here written by members with more experience that I have which point out factors to be aware of, and they are all worth to go through.
Greetings,
Mike
[Edited at 2017-02-04 22:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Annamaria Amik
Local time: 13:26
Romanian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
jyuan_us wrote:
Looking the title "PM says the agency paid, but can't prove, because she's new..." I cannot help but ask: "why didn't you ask to talk to his supervisor or someone in charge of the company's accounting department?"
I asked her about five times to check the actual books (the ones they use for tax purposes - in their country, there are very strict reporting regulations), I specifically told her which subledger to check. She simply ignored this suggestion. Since she has been answering my invoice-related questions lately, and never the translation-related ones, I assume she handles the translators' financial matters.
@Mike
Everything that's wrong in this business relationship is wrong because of their stupid expectations. This used to be a favorite client for years, until they just got worse (like Lingua5B commented, PM fluctuation is a sure sign of a bad agency). If they accepted monthly invoices, this would have never happened. Not only they place a completely unreasonable administrative burden on us, translators, by demanding separate invoices and no minimum payment to compensate for the effort, it seems they expect us to handle the extra burden of chasing any payments they might overlook for the same stupid reason they created: that there are two many invoices.
Of course it is my duty to remind them if payment is overdue, but asking them every single month "have you paid this 1, 2, 3, 10 eur invoice?" several times is surely not the nit-picking mercenary behavior I want my professional image to be associated with. I tried to make it easier for everyone by issuing all the invoices on the same day, but to them, payment term is just for information purposes anyway, not something they feel they should observe strictly. Since 1) late payment always affected the individual small amounts, and rarely the larger ones, which I always chased while still giving them a reasonable extra week or two, and 2) eventually they paid most invoices - it was easy to overlook the smaller invoices overdue and just trust that they show up on their books and they will eventually pay.
The more I think about it, the clearer it becomes that practices such as this one should not be tolerated even for long-standing clients.
Thank you all again, you've been very helpful!
[Edited at 2017-02-05 07:27 GMT]
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Before you abandon this debt and drop this previously satisfactory client and since you now believe you have identified the person in charge of the agency's accounts and have been corresponding with her by email, what about telephoning her? You could email her asking her to tell you when would be a convenient time to telephone her. This would enable both of you to have all the necessary records ready to hand. I'd recommend you to prepare a "scenario" beforehand of what you intend to say (brief n... See more Before you abandon this debt and drop this previously satisfactory client and since you now believe you have identified the person in charge of the agency's accounts and have been corresponding with her by email, what about telephoning her? You could email her asking her to tell you when would be a convenient time to telephone her. This would enable both of you to have all the necessary records ready to hand. I'd recommend you to prepare a "scenario" beforehand of what you intend to say (brief notes with dates, reference numbers, amounts due, etc.) so that you don't get distracted from your main theme (getting these invoices paid).
Supposing that this telephone conversation takes place, I'd recommend remaining polite but firm throughout the conversation, however infuriating the situation, and keep pressing your point (the "broken record" method) which is that they owe you the money and you want to be paid.
If none of this works, then perhaps give up - and make an entry in their Blue Board record.
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
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These tiny unpaid jobs account for x% of your income from this client. How about suggesting that you'll let bygones be bygones and do them free of charge from now on (if, and only if, the volume does not increase appreciably) and that you'll raise your normal rate accordingly by y%*) for regular jobs in order to compensate? Means much less paperwork and hassle for both sides, and no extra cost to either.
Just an idea. If they're a 'good' client otherwise.
*) If I'm thi... See more These tiny unpaid jobs account for x% of your income from this client. How about suggesting that you'll let bygones be bygones and do them free of charge from now on (if, and only if, the volume does not increase appreciably) and that you'll raise your normal rate accordingly by y%*) for regular jobs in order to compensate? Means much less paperwork and hassle for both sides, and no extra cost to either.
Just an idea. If they're a 'good' client otherwise.
*) If I'm thinking straight, y = [10000 / (100 - x)] - 100
Probably more info than you needed ▲ Collapse
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| Maybe it is time for plan B | Feb 6, 2017 |
Hi Annamaria,
The way you endured and handled the situation can only be done by a very nice person, but maybe it is time to effect plan B = put some pressure on the kettle.
The way I read all your comments, they are not going to pay you, so why keep working for them? Also for me, they don't sound 'great' (although I think you yourself should hire a bookkeeper to check your invoices. Unpaid bills from 2014????).
Tell them very politely you want to be paid wi... See more Hi Annamaria,
The way you endured and handled the situation can only be done by a very nice person, but maybe it is time to effect plan B = put some pressure on the kettle.
The way I read all your comments, they are not going to pay you, so why keep working for them? Also for me, they don't sound 'great' (although I think you yourself should hire a bookkeeper to check your invoices. Unpaid bills from 2014????).
Tell them very politely you want to be paid within a certain (reasonable, taking the situation into consideration) timeframe, or they wouldn't leave you any other choice then 'to make use of the platforms available to us translators' (like Blueboard). You'll be surprised how fast lost information suddenly will be found. Works for me as an absolutely last resort.
Read all the comments from the colleagues. What do you have to loose? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Annamaria Amik
Local time: 13:26
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Agencies dictating the terms | Feb 7, 2017 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
The way I read all your comments, they are not going to pay you, so why keep working for them? Also for me, they don't sound 'great' (although I think you yourself should hire a bookkeeper to check your invoices. Unpaid bills from 2014????).
Tell them very politely you want to be paid within a certain (reasonable, taking the situation into consideration) timeframe, or they wouldn't leave you any other choice then 'to make use of the platforms available to us translators' (like Blueboard). You'll be surprised how fast lost information suddenly will be found. Works for me as an absolutely last resort.
Read all the comments from the colleagues. What do you have to loose?
That's exactly what I did, except that I didn't threaten them with "platforms", but gave them an ultimatum. I did read all the other comments, for which I'm grateful.
However, based on their attitude, I do believe they won't be paying anyway. Not because it's hard for them to check things now: it's because some intern PM just entered the wrong date in their project management (and not bookkeeping!) system and now everybody relies on that date instead of checking the actual underlying documents. They would have reacted the same way even if I had asked them to check this two years ago.
I issued a total of 400 invoices to them since then, of which 5 are unpaid. I simply trusted they would realize their own mistake, like they do sometimes.
I never had one non-payment issue in fifteen years, i.e. six thousand projects, my records are control-freakishly clear, and I do have many other clients. So no, I am not going to hire and pay a bookkeeper just for their invoices, because they expect me to issue 150 invoices per year instead of 12, and most of them for half-page jobs.
Once they demanded that all of their translators buy this CAT tool, because within a few months they would only handle projects through that one. Fine for me, I happened to buy the same tool about that time anyway. Months later, they keep sending jobs in another CAT Tool. When asked why they weren't preparing the projects in that CAT tool they demanded, they said: oh, we abandoned that idea and we chose another tool. No comment.
Or: they send one-page jobs and expect a discount because two lines (yes, two lines) are repetitive. This happened several times. Of course I refused to grant a discount for two lines.
I think it's obvious why I've finally grown reluctant to put in any more effort in this "business" relationship. Just like in personal life, a functional relationship needs efforts from both parties...
| | | | Clarisa Moraña
United States
Local time: 05:26
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
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| quote: Payment is via Paypal | Feb 9, 2017 |
If Payment is via Paypal, you could check the payments received from your client via Paypal. Can't you check it?
Regards
Clarisa
| | | | mona elshazly
Egypt
Local time: 12:26
Member (2016)
Italian to Arabic
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Since they are a long-standing client, I rarely chase the payments.
Excuse me it was your fault from the beginning, even long standing clients you should chase for your payments.
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If I were you I would invest 30 euro in a consultation with some lawyer.
A polite message to the client about firm intention to apply for lawyer services if my invoices are not settled will definitely help.
| | | | | or debt collecting agency? | Feb 9, 2017 |
option 2 - debt collecting agency will definitely help you to recover outstandings
The case is 100% clear
I am sure the same day a debt collecting agency contacts your client, your client will contact you in order to know to what bank account the payment be made.
| | | | Annamaria Amik
Local time: 13:26
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Debt collection | Feb 9, 2017 |
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
option 2 - debt collecting agency will definitely help you to recover outstandings
The case is 100% clear
I am sure the same day a debt collecting agency contacts your client, your client will contact you in order to know to what bank account the payment be made.
Sergei, thanks for the suggestion. I'm thinking about an EU Small Claims procedure.
Anyhow, the lesson is learned: translators shouldn't tolerate insane rules imposed by agencies. I should have never tolerated this separate-invoice folly, which made it impossible for them to make the payments accurately and put me/us translators in the uncomfortable position of chasing 1-5-10 EUR payments over the years.
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