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Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 21:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Perhaps it's in the wrong place, in the wrong format? Oct 31, 2012

Perhaps it would be slightly more logical as a refinement of the target language? Which variant(s) do we feel confident to translate into? But we'd need to be able to input all possible ones if we wanted. As others have said, unless or until the native language question has been resolved, you really can't begin to make the native field more precise. If someone with intermediate-level English is claiming to be a native speaker, what difference does it make if s/he is a (not) native speaker of Bri... See more
Perhaps it would be slightly more logical as a refinement of the target language? Which variant(s) do we feel confident to translate into? But we'd need to be able to input all possible ones if we wanted. As others have said, unless or until the native language question has been resolved, you really can't begin to make the native field more precise. If someone with intermediate-level English is claiming to be a native speaker, what difference does it make if s/he is a (not) native speaker of British, American, Australian... English? S/he probably has no idea which is which, anyway. It's just more GIGO added to the profile.

I actually see the main use of a variant field being for people who need things done: it really needs to be used by job posters, and by KudoZ askers. Then translators can decide if they are competent. An example: A job posting in my email inbox that specified American English, rather than simply English, could quickly be dealt with by pressing 'delete'. On the other hand, I might still be interested in looking at an American English KudoZ question as there are far more similarities than differences between the two variants.

I certainly don't see that a free-format field will achieve anything useful. A computer won't see any similarity between the character strings "British" and "UK"; nor "French" and "for France". Surely, there needs to be a data-gathering exercise before anything can be input, doesn't there?
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 05:15
Chinese to English
What is the function of this data? Oct 31, 2012

I haven't quite understood how this data will function in the site. Will it be like native language in that it can be a criterion for including/excluding bidders and in searches?

I'd certainly be happy to state that I'm British and my native variant is BrEng. But like other Brits I'm a bit worried that my access to the large "international English" market would be affected because LSPs/clients would select AmEng by default.

I guess it would be interesting to know how ag
... See more
I haven't quite understood how this data will function in the site. Will it be like native language in that it can be a criterion for including/excluding bidders and in searches?

I'd certainly be happy to state that I'm British and my native variant is BrEng. But like other Brits I'm a bit worried that my access to the large "international English" market would be affected because LSPs/clients would select AmEng by default.

I guess it would be interesting to know how agencies use the data, as Henry says. Worth trying, and if my fears are not justified, then I have no problems with it.
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Marina Steinbach
Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 17:15
Member (2011)
English to German
Is this also a "beta" test? Nov 1, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

The significance of "language variants" was called to mind recently, both in the busy thread on native language, and in the current translation contest. We've decided to try and gather some data on language variants, to begin the process of handling them more specifically in various places throughout ProZ.com.

To get things started, a means has been provided to specify which variant(s) of your native language you speak (or that you speak "most naturally"). I'd like to ask willing members to please take a moment to fill that in, and perhaps provide feedback. This will help us to build a framework for handling native languages more specifically.

To specify your language variant(s), go to your profile page, select the "Profile Updater" tab, then go to "Languages". You'll find the option to specify a language variant in the box for Native Language.

Of course we would appreciate any feedback or ideas you have on this topic.


Is this also a "beta" test? I am just asking, because I tried to specify my variant and read the following:

1) At this time, please state all variants in English.

2) The top entered variants for German are:

Deutschland
Deutsch
Hochdeutsch


This doesn't make sense to me. What do you expect me to enter? Nothing, because according to 1) I have not stated that I am a "native English" or according to 2) I am either "Germany", "German" or "High German" (my translation of the terms "Deutschland", "Deutsch" and "Hochdeutsch")?



 
ClaudiaBlanco
ClaudiaBlanco  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
+ ...
Spanish from Spain, Spanish from Argentina and neutral Spanish Nov 1, 2012

Having lived, worked and studied in Spain for 17 years and Argentina for 19 years she masters two versions of Spanish: Spanish from Spain and Argentina in addition to neutral Spanish.

 
Liu Lin
Liu Lin  Identity Verified
Norway
Local time: 22:15
English to Chinese
+ ...
Really confused with the word "Mandarin Chinese" Nov 1, 2012

As a native Chinese girl (from Northeast of China), I have a great dislike toward the word "Mandarin". I remember when I first came to the UK in 2000, my teacher at school asked what type of Chinese that I speak. I was totally puzzled, coz throughout my entire life in China, there's only one standard Chinese, that is the “普通话”.

"Mandarin" is:

a) Not a region in China
b) Not a group of people
c) Not a dialect

On the internet some says:<
... See more
As a native Chinese girl (from Northeast of China), I have a great dislike toward the word "Mandarin". I remember when I first came to the UK in 2000, my teacher at school asked what type of Chinese that I speak. I was totally puzzled, coz throughout my entire life in China, there's only one standard Chinese, that is the “普通话”.

"Mandarin" is:

a) Not a region in China
b) Not a group of people
c) Not a dialect

On the internet some says:

The English term comes from the Portuguese 'mandarim' or Dutch 'mandarijn', from Indonesian/Malay 'məntəri', from Hindi 'mantri', from Sanskrit 'mantrin' which all mean councilor or minister; it is also a translation of the Chinese term Guānhuà (simplified Chinese: 官话; traditional Chinese: 官話), which literally means the language of the imperial magistrates.

That's so ancient!!!! Whatever that is! I know people normally think Mandarin=Northern Chinese.But for a Chinese born person, and from the north, that word is just foreign and confusing!

Another one I HATE is "Cantonese", Canton or Guangdong is a province of China. There are 22 provinces, 4 municipalities, 5 autonomous regions, and 2 special administrative regions. And every region has its own dialect. What makes people from Guangdong think their language is that special. Only because about a century ago there were large number of immigrants arrived in Europe and the US are originally from Canton region---that's before China had an official language. I don't like people ask me "Do you speak Chinese or Cantonese", it's like someone is asking: "Do you speak English or Scouse?"

[Edited at 2012-11-01 11:13 GMT]
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Graça Ribeiro
Graça Ribeiro  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:15
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Thanks. Had been thinking about raising this issue but wasn't sure how Nov 1, 2012

Hello, everyone.

My native language is Portuguese and the 'variant' is European.

I understand people with a more 'varied' background - linguistic, professional and personal - may have difficulties in giving such a straightforward reply to the question that's the title of this topic. I probably would have a similar problem if I had to define the English and French 'variants' I can translate from, for example.

But for me, depending on how the actual thing wi
... See more
Hello, everyone.

My native language is Portuguese and the 'variant' is European.

I understand people with a more 'varied' background - linguistic, professional and personal - may have difficulties in giving such a straightforward reply to the question that's the title of this topic. I probably would have a similar problem if I had to define the English and French 'variants' I can translate from, for example.

But for me, depending on how the actual thing will work, this could be very useful indeed. I would like to see European Portuguese translators somehow 'separated' from the Brazilian Portuguese translators on the PROZ site. I think this would be useful for both translators and clients without compromising any sense of community.

I don't know if all my colleagues would agree and it was my intention to open a discussion topic on the relevant forum to try and sort that out. But since this opportunity has arisen, I'm taking a 'shortcut' - hoping it doesn't somehow turn into any kind of hornest's nest.

Having the language variant (EU or BR) specified on job offers, for example, has made my life much easier so I would like to see if similar improvements could be made at other levels. I agree this may not be so easy with other languages but even so it may be worth trying.

Sorry for the long thread. Any feedback or comments are welcome.
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, laurenlin123 Nov 1, 2012

laurenlin123 wrote:

As a native Chinese girl (from Northeast of China), I have a great dislike toward the word "Mandarin"...

But for a Chinese born person, and from the north, that word is just foreign and confusing!

...

Another one I HATE is "Cantonese"

Thanks for this information.

If you had to guess, why do you think "Mandarin" and "Cantonese" have been entered by translators using this feature?


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:15
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Replies Nov 1, 2012

"Surely, there needs to be a data-gathering exercise before anything can be input, doesn't there?" Yes! In fact, this is the data gathering exercise. (Maybe it is misleading that the data is being gathered through the profile, as you say Sheila. We considered this but did not immediately have a better place.)

"I haven't quite understood how this data will function in the site." We don't have any particular use in mind yet. Need to gather the data first.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:15
English to German
+ ...
what "variant" can imply Nov 1, 2012

Ty Kendall wrote:

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
I stick with my statement that "Nativeness" is not this important.


Nativeness is important....HOWEVER, I must say that I'm not sure this is a step in the right direction (or any direction if I'm honest).


Same here. Many clients are looking for professional translators who translate into their native language and sometimes clients are looking for translators who translate from their native language.

But I don't support the "variant" option.

One of the meanings of "variant" is "deviating from a standard".
As far as German is concerned, you learn the same German in school, you read the same classic German literature, you are exposed to many German television stations and programs from all German-speaking countries and regions.

You are born and grow up in a particular German-speaking area but that does not limit your ability to render a text in German for all German-speaking regions. Exceptions exist, in particular for Swiss German (I am not talking about Schwyzer Dütsch - which is a spoken dialect - used in general conversations as well as on Swiss television - often, not always) but I'm talking about the "standard" German used in Switzerland which contains many words that are not first or second choice in other German-speaking regions. Nevertheless, that German is still something every NS of German understands, and the grammatical rules are the same. Sometimes a client from Switzerland will look for a German native speaker who grew up in Switzerland and that's okay.

But in general, when one translates into or from German, we mean a standard German that all people in German-speaking countries and regions understand (read) and use (write).

The regional differences between Germany and Austria are far smaller than a colleague has indicated.
And as an experienced translator, you are certainly aware of some important differences and able to handle them.

I believe the variant option is more than just indicating where you grew up. It implies you "speak" only one or two particular variants, thus limiting the scope of the services you offer. As translators, we don't "speak" the language, we "write" it and in German we write "standard German" unless as specified by the client or as decided by the translator, for special reasons.

Any particular decisions about who should carry out a translation are best made on a by-case basis.

As I have argued in the long native language thread, certain languages might have variants that would warrant treating them as different languages. But that is not the case with German.

Could we give the option not to show the "variant" insert in our profiles?

I would have liked to see a discussion about it before it was introduced.

Another consideration includes NS living in other countries than the ones they grew up in.
They are often just a s capable or even more capable to undertake a project into or from their NL than someone still living in their NL country (variant should not mean you live there).

Thank you,

Bernhard


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 22:15
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Rather an Anglophone point of view Nov 1, 2012

In English there is no Académie or Language Council or whatever, and there ARE variants.

Then there are dialects within the variants - so many people will have grown up writing the 'approved' style at school. (In my case it was no split infinitives, NEVER begin a sentence with And or But, that sort of thing...) Meanwhile they speak a completely different dialect at home, and write a sort of compromise once they get away from school and teachers with red pens.

At firs
... See more
In English there is no Académie or Language Council or whatever, and there ARE variants.

Then there are dialects within the variants - so many people will have grown up writing the 'approved' style at school. (In my case it was no split infinitives, NEVER begin a sentence with And or But, that sort of thing...) Meanwhile they speak a completely different dialect at home, and write a sort of compromise once they get away from school and teachers with red pens.

At first I was delighted with this suggestion: Americans could filter me out and we need not waste each other's time...

But after reading this discussion, it is not that simple.

Although I have followed a lot of that record-long discussion on nativeness, I have deliberately kept out of it - my feelings run too deep. I have stated my opinions elsewhere and in other forums on this site.

I too think proficiency is more important than nativeness in many situations, and have decided for now to leave my native language as English unspecified.

Elderly, old-hippie, ex-pat... Chameleon-coloured...
I can comply with many clients' requirements by checking through a text with a style guide in my hand, but I have my own idiolect!

Clients will have to take it from there as before.
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Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:15
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Variant? Nov 1, 2012

Is English English a "variant" of English? What, then, is the standard? Just curious.
Jenny


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 21:15
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Makes most sense as an "I want" criterion Nov 1, 2012

Sorry if I'm somewhat repeating my earlier post, but I really do think this is a clear and definite requirement in the "I want" side of the site. Perhaps that's the place to start. I have a feeling it's already been implemented in the job section, hasn't it? I believe we now see jobs that specify British English target, don't we? If that hasn't been implemented yet, then it really needs to be. Apart from anything else, we need to be able to identify jobs that aren't EN>EN but are rather British ... See more
Sorry if I'm somewhat repeating my earlier post, but I really do think this is a clear and definite requirement in the "I want" side of the site. Perhaps that's the place to start. I have a feeling it's already been implemented in the job section, hasn't it? I believe we now see jobs that specify British English target, don't we? If that hasn't been implemented yet, then it really needs to be. Apart from anything else, we need to be able to identify jobs that aren't EN>EN but are rather British English to American English localisation (all of this applies to other languages, of course).

On the other hand, job posters often don't really know or care about the variant, though I'm sure they would prefer it to be in one rather than a mixture. I think that if they don't have strong feelings then they should be encouraged to request the language rather than a specific variant. In fact, the variants clients may need are not exactly the ones native speakers use: they may want international English (idiom-free and using standard, common terms that higher-level non-native speakers will understand), or even simplified English. As far as I know, these variants aren't native variants - nobody speaks simplified English, certainly not translators who like to make full use of the language.

But it's also needed on the KudoZ side of things. At the moment we sometimes have the ludicrous situation of people disagreeing with each other simply because they prefer their own variant of a term. Sometimes, they are totally unaware that the other term is actually acceptable. Answerers need to know what the asker wants. Sometimes a particular variant has been imposed by the client, sometimes the asker simply needs their own variant, to fit in with the rest of the text.

So, I believe it's very important for defining the "I want" of jobs and KudoZ questions, but I don't think it's going to be so simple on the "I can provide" side. I really don't think it's feasible for job posters to restrict applications to speakers of a particular variant. As we've seen in this thread, far too many people believe they're able to cross the variant divide.

I believe there's great potential for a "for information only" variant field in our profiles. I'm all for that. Often when I look at profiles I'm left wondering whether I'm looking at the profile of a British or other native speaker of English. It can be useful information and I'm very happy to be able to add it to my profile: I'm 100% British, with a good (but imperfect) knowledge of American and Canadian differences, and very little idea of the subtleties of Australian English, etc.
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Alison Sparks (X)
Alison Sparks (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:15
French to English
+ ...
I agree 100% Nov 1, 2012

with Sheila's "I want" suggestion, and in particular her remarks regarding KudoZ. I too am British English with a good but imperfect knowledge of several variants including Aussie, US, Scots etc. although I have added the variant to my profile.

 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:15
Russian to English
+ ...
I think it is a very interesting idea. Nov 1, 2012

I would even suggest that people add more than two languages they speak at a, so called, "native level" (including up to two varieties of each -- if they speak more than one), or any dialects they may be proficient in -- just as side-notes, if there is no other place for that. It might be very important if we need to locate translators who speak very rare languages, or vanishing dialects. I just think it is vary important that people are honest about those declarations.


... See more
I would even suggest that people add more than two languages they speak at a, so called, "native level" (including up to two varieties of each -- if they speak more than one), or any dialects they may be proficient in -- just as side-notes, if there is no other place for that. It might be very important if we need to locate translators who speak very rare languages, or vanishing dialects. I just think it is vary important that people are honest about those declarations.









[Edited at 2012-11-01 16:18 GMT]
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KKastenhuber
KKastenhuber  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 22:15
Russian to German
+ ...
I don't see it making sense for German Nov 1, 2012

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

The regional differences between Germany and Austria are far smaller than a colleague has indicated.
And as an experienced translator, you are certainly aware of some important differences and able to handle them.

I believe the variant option is more than just indicating where you grew up. It implies you "speak" only one or two particular variants, thus limiting the scope of the services you offer. As translators, we don't "speak" the language, we "write" it and in German we write "standard German" unless as specified by the client or as decided by the translator, for special reasons.


My thoughts exactly. There's definitely a danger of potential customers being lead into thinking that translators who write they are native speakers of "German (Austria)" (or anything along those lines) will render their text in some sort of dialect and not in Standard German, and that is simply not true. Choosing a variety other than "High/Standard German" (which is redundant, since it applies to basically any written German text, with very few exceptions) or "German (Germany)" would basically equal deliberately excluding oneself from jobs that one is well able to do, just because one didn't grow up in Germany (which is usually perceived as the - only - country where "unmarked" German is spoken/written, although this is far from true).

Sure, occasionally there may be texts where the variety one is a native speaker of does matter, but I would rather trust the customer and/or translator to judge on a case by case basis.


Marina Steinbach wrote:

1) At this time, please state all variants in English.

2) The top entered variants for German are:

Deutschland
Deutsch
Hochdeutsch


This doesn't make sense to me. What do you expect me to enter? Nothing, because according to 1) I have not stated that I am a "native English" or according to 2) I am either "Germany", "German" or "High German" (my translation of the terms "Deutschland", "Deutsch" and "Hochdeutsch")?




You are being asked to use the English term for the variety you are going to enter, but apparently other users haven't gotten that message either.


Jenny Forbes wrote:

Is English English a "variant" of English? What, then, is the standard? Just curious.
Jenny


The "standard" itself is considered a "variant" (or, more correctly, a "variety") of the language, too. Your question actually reveals what the problem with this feature could be. People are likely to perceive "variant"/"variety" as something that deviates from the standard language and is therefore to be avoided. In fact, what we're dealing with are pluricentric standard languages. You're not supposed to specify in what way your variety deviates from the norm, but which one of the various, equally valuable "centers" you grew up in, i.e. which one of several standard varieties of the same language you speak.

(Sorry if this last part is worded weirdly, I'm having a hard time explaining this in English.)

Informative Wiki links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(linguistics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_language


[Edited at 2012-11-01 18:35 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-11-01 18:39 GMT]


 
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