| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Hi. I am new registered to this site Thread poster: Maria Elena Santa
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Maria Elena Santa 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:33
Romanian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Hi Stanislav
So you say I would have little chances to get a translation from English to German because I am Romanian mother tongue.
I forget to tell you but I finished my BA in Italy, so I only made translations from English to Italian and vice versa, Italian to German and vice versa. I was studying Italian, English and German (no Romanian).
I want to start an MA in Translation in London from English to Italian and vice versa. So do you think nobody will want me to tran... See more Hi Stanislav
So you say I would have little chances to get a translation from English to German because I am Romanian mother tongue.
I forget to tell you but I finished my BA in Italy, so I only made translations from English to Italian and vice versa, Italian to German and vice versa. I was studying Italian, English and German (no Romanian).
I want to start an MA in Translation in London from English to Italian and vice versa. So do you think nobody will want me to translate from Italian to English because I am not Italian mother tongue. (although I have Italian citizenship) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Timote Suladze
Russian Federation
Local time: 15:33
Italian to Russian
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Stanislav Pokorny wrote:
But why on Earth would I want to assign a German > Italian translation to a Romanian translator?
If this romanian translator is able to go a high level translation from German into Italian, why not?
Stanislav Pokorny wrote:
Of course, that's the only way to go if you're translating "the wrong direction". I do that once or twice a year, when the client is really, really persistent with his/her requirement.
I do the same once o twice a week, the same is for all translators who work in Russia and ex-USSR.
Stanislav Pokorny wrote:
Okay, if that's the situation on the Russian market, it's your business how you deal with it. But the situation elsewhere may be – and as you can read in other forums – is different.
Yes, I know that the situation is different. I said only about russian and ex-soviet market, surely.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 12:33
Member (2007)
English
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| Why not aim for perfection? | Jul 6, 2012 |
Timote, this subject seems to be being discussed everywhere on the site at the moment, ad nauseam.
I can quite understand that non-native translators are used in some language pairs to cope with a shortage of translators who are native speakers of the target language. I can also understand that it is sometimes possible to charge more translating in the reverse pair, so it is tempting to do so.
However, th... See more Timote, this subject seems to be being discussed everywhere on the site at the moment, ad nauseam.
I can quite understand that non-native translators are used in some language pairs to cope with a shortage of translators who are native speakers of the target language. I can also understand that it is sometimes possible to charge more translating in the reverse pair, so it is tempting to do so.
However, these are exceptions, "make do" solutions and are never the best arrangement. And I think it is very wrong to tell new translators that they should do anything but aim for perfection.
For any text which is to be published (e.g. above the level of email, internal memorandum, etc), then it is absolutely essential that the text be reviewed by a native speaker of the target language. A translator who is merely fluent in the target language should use an editor who can refer to the source text, as incorrect word order, misused phrasal verbs etc. can render the translation meaningless, or even change the meaning; near-native speakers of the target language can get away with monolingual proofreading to make sure that the text reads naturally.
A text that reads naturally is absolutely essential in my specialisations of English marketing and tourism. I can't vouch for other languages and specialisations, but I doubt there is very much difference.
Sheila ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 04:33
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| Translate into mother tongue | Jul 6, 2012 |
marelyne wrote:
So do you think nobody will want me to translate from Italian to English because I am not Italian mother tongue. (although I have Italian citizenship)
No, not because your mother tongue (native language) is not Italian, but because your mother tongue is not English. You can only offer excellent translations into your mother tongue (or a language that you have learned so well that you write it as well as your mother tongue, which is not the case with your English).
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 12:33
Member (2007)
English
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| Look at it this way | Jul 6, 2012 |
You speak English very well, I'm sure, but do you really speak it as well as a native English speaker? One who has spoken the language since birth and knows exactly the best way of saying things, not from classes but from the cradle? Who spent all their childhood at school writing essays in English, taking exams in English, then working in English?
If you can't truthfully say "yes", why not leave the IT>EN jobs to those who can?
Frankly, your level of written English ma... See more You speak English very well, I'm sure, but do you really speak it as well as a native English speaker? One who has spoken the language since birth and knows exactly the best way of saying things, not from classes but from the cradle? Who spent all their childhood at school writing essays in English, taking exams in English, then working in English?
If you can't truthfully say "yes", why not leave the IT>EN jobs to those who can?
Frankly, your level of written English may well be good enough to pass exams in an Italian university, but I know many clients who would return your forum posts for correction, who would possibly refuse to pay you in full, and who certainly wouldn't give you a second job. I have to back that up with details, so here are some points from you latest post:
I would have little chances to get ---> I would have little chance of getting
I only made translations ---> I only did/produced/delivered... translations
do you think nobody ---> don't you think anybody (your version is not a grammatical mistake but it reads very strangely)
Bear in mind that when an agency sends your translation to a proofreader (if indeed they do - some don't), they expect to have to pay for the correction of a couple of typos, not grammar mistakes.
So, please, tell outsourcers truthfully what your native language is, and put most of your effort into translating from all your other languages into it. It doesn't mean you can't ever accept a reverse pair translation if you're asked, but the client should know the facts. And translating between two foreign languages seems to me to be a ridiculous thing for you to do, in languages that are so common. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to look at the directory here on ProZ.com and see for yourself just how many translators there are here (and this is just a subset of all translators, remember) who specialise in that pair AND are native speakers of the target language. Then think "why should anyone choose me over them?".
None of that means you are throwing away time and/or money on an MA in Translation. Regardless of the languages involved, there will be many techniques which will be useful for your pair.
Sheila ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Nobody will want me because ........ | Jul 6, 2012 |
marelyne wrote:
Hi Stanislav
So you say I would have little chances to get a translation from English to German because I am Romanian mother tongue.
I forget to tell you but I finished my BA in Italy, so I only made translations from English to Italian and vice versa, Italian to German and vice versa. I was studying Italian, English and German (no Romanian).
I want to start an MA in Translation in London from English to Italian and vice versa. So do you think nobody will want me to translate from Italian to English because I am not Italian mother tongue. (although I have Italian citizenship)
Hi Marelyne,
Reputable agencies will not want you to translate from Italian to English not because you are not Italian mother tongue but because your English is not of the required standard, although obviously I'm basing myself just on what I can see here.
I am sure that once you are qualified you will have plenty of work from your source languages into Romanian.
In bocca al lupo
| | | | | No need to be confused | Jul 6, 2012 |
Allow me to quote a seasoned Canadian translator from a different translation website:
*****
The bottom line is that your translation should be of a professional standard, which means the translation (meaning) is correct, and the target language is correct both grammatically and stylistically. If you can produce a proper document, then "who" you are should not matter.
The hypothesis is this: We have an active language – which is what we say and... See more Allow me to quote a seasoned Canadian translator from a different translation website:
*****
The bottom line is that your translation should be of a professional standard, which means the translation (meaning) is correct, and the target language is correct both grammatically and stylistically. If you can produce a proper document, then "who" you are should not matter.
The hypothesis is this: We have an active language – which is what we say and write – and a passive language – which is what we understand and read. Our passive language is greater than our active language. You will understand more things that you can produce. Your active language will be smaller in your acquired language, and you will be more likely to write unnatural sounding sentences, even if you are able to understand sophisticated material that has been written. Therefore it is unlikely that you will write as well as a native speaker (a linguist – not an uneducated person on the street) in that language.
If you are a senior translator and charging professional rates for that kind of service, then the client expects certain things and that is what you aim for....My translations are expected to be error-free in terms of meaning, and the target language must be correct and in an appropriate style. To meet these expectations I don't accept material that is specialized beyond my abilities – I take on what I can do well.
*****
Are you sure you are up to the professional standards in other languages than your mother tongue?
marelyne wrote:
Hi Stanislav
So you say I would have little chances to get a translation from English to German because I am Romanian mother tongue.
I was not talking about your chance of getting a job in the "wrong direction". I am arguing that this is not correct. Anyway, hardly any international and established translation agency here at ProZ will ask you to translate into your non-native language.
I forget to tell you but I finished my BA in Italy, so I only made translations from English to Italian and vice versa, Italian to German and vice versa. I was studying Italian, English and German (no Romanian).
I fail to understand how this relates to the issue we are discussing. Romanian is your mother tongue and as an educated person, you should be proficient enough in using it.
I want to start an MA in Translation in London from English to Italian and vice versa. So do you think nobody will want me to translate from Italian to English because I am not Italian mother tongue.
The same as above: you may receive jobs now and then. Again, I am arguing that this is not correct and that you are opening yourself to possible quality and payment issues.
(although I have Italian citizenship)
Again, completely irrelevant.
I said what I had to say on this matter. It's your professional life.
[Upraveno: 2012-07-06 19:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Timote Suladze wrote: Stanislav Pokorny wrote:
But why on Earth would I want to assign a German > Italian translation to a Romanian translator?
If this romanian translator is able to go a high level translation from German into Italian, why not?
Of course; but in my experience these are exceptional cases and I know very few people who could deliver acceptable quality in both language directions. And none of them is a fresh graduate. On the other hand, as an associate lecturer at two universities, I know hundreds of students in their first translation MA year (i.e. BA degree holders) who aren't capable of producing a translation in acceptable quality into their mother tongue. That's why I'm challenging Maria Elena's approach.
Stanislav Pokorny wrote:
Of course, that's the only way to go if you're translating "the wrong direction". I do that once or twice a year, when the client is really, really persistent with his/her requirement.
I do the same once o twice a week, the same is for all translators who work in Russia and ex-USSR.
Timote, this is your situation, so please don't make it a widespread practice. I've been around the online translation communities for quite a while and I've met lots of translators from the former USSR countries who would strongly disagree on this statement.
[Upraveno: 2012-07-06 19:16 GMT]
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If Romanian is your L1, and you stopped using it at the age of 10 or even fifteen on regular basis, except for talking to someone on the phone once a month, and you have been using another language in your everyday life, at the university and at work, and you are absolutely proficient in that language, and you you have been living in that country for many years, you can absolutely list that language as your second native language for translation purposes, maybe not for linguistic study purposes ... See more If Romanian is your L1, and you stopped using it at the age of 10 or even fifteen on regular basis, except for talking to someone on the phone once a month, and you have been using another language in your everyday life, at the university and at work, and you are absolutely proficient in that language, and you you have been living in that country for many years, you can absolutely list that language as your second native language for translation purposes, maybe not for linguistic study purposes on the development of bilingual children. It would not be appropriate to list just Romanian, if you are more comfortable with other languages.
Also, I think it is very important that you obtain proper linguistic education, not just some translation courses ending in certificates, but real language education with language as you major and then some translation courses. I believe that mostly people who have solid linguistic education and training in translation can translate properly.
And besides, how many English-speaking people who have spent most of their lives in Britain are out there to be able to translate something more complex from Romanian. 2? 3? Much of the translation into English is for international clients, not just people from Britain, and it is even advisable that the language be more neutral, without too many idiomatic expressions, especially in the financial field, or medical. It is also important that you specialize in a few fields, rather than everything and nothing really. Just choose some fields you know a lot about and that you are really interested in, and try to learn almost everything in those fields -- the vocabulary, some new words, definitions. Create a glossary.
To sum up, I really only think you can list another language as your native for professional purposes if you have lived in a country the language is spoken for many years, it is the language of your habitual use and most of your education is in that language. So, if you have been living in Italy for most of your life, you are closer to listing Italian as your second native language than listing English, if you are absolutely proficient in it, and if most of your education is in that language.
[Edited at 2012-07-06 19:47 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-06 20:00 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-06 20:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maria Elena Santa
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:33
Romanian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank Sheila Wilson and Stanislav Pokorny.
i appreciate a lot.
| | | | | A few comments | Jul 7, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Also, I think it is very important that you obtain proper linguistic education, not just some translation courses ending in certificates, but real language education with language as you major and then some translation courses.
I think Maria's already done that: as far as I can understand from her posts, she's a BA holder.
And besides, how many English-speaking people who have spent most of their lives in Britain are out there to be able to translate something more complex from Romanian. 2? 3?
Actually 49 translators are registered on ProZ. Chances are good that there are more who are not registered here.
Much of the translation into English is for international clients, not just people from Britain, and it is even advisable that the language be more neutral, without too many idiomatic expressions, especially in the financial field, or medical.
I don't think I undrerstand what you are trying to say: there are very few fields (marketing and belletry come to my mind) in which you would want to use idiomatic or even colloquial language. Furthermore, "neutral" doesn't mean "simplified" or "of lower standard". Also, in fields like finances or medicine, and especially in the business language, a knowledgeable native speaker will use stylistic means, such as ellipses, a non-native speaker will rarely afford to use.
It is also important that you specialize in a few fields, rather than everything and nothing really.
Agree, this is indeed important.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:33
English to German
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In memoriam | I fully agree with Sheila. | Jul 7, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
You speak English very well, I'm sure, but do you really speak it as well as a native English speaker? One who has spoken the language since birth and knows exactly the best way of saying things, not from classes but from the cradle? Who spent all their childhood at school writing essays in English, taking exams in English, then working in English?
If you can't truthfully say "yes", why not leave the IT>EN jobs to those who can?
Frankly, your level of written English may well be good enough to pass exams in an Italian university, but I know many clients who would return your forum posts for correction, who would possibly refuse to pay you in full, and who certainly wouldn't give you a second job. I have to back that up with details, so here are some points from you latest post:
I would have little chances to get ---> I would have little chance of getting
I only made translations ---> I only did/produced/delivered... translations
do you think nobody ---> don't you think anybody (your version is not a grammatical mistake but it reads very strangely)
Bear in mind that when an agency sends your translation to a proofreader (if indeed they do - some don't), they expect to have to pay for the correction of a couple of typos, not grammar mistakes.
So, please, tell outsourcers truthfully what your native language is, and put most of your effort into translating from all your other languages into it. It doesn't mean you can't ever accept a reverse pair translation if you're asked, but the client should know the facts. And translating between two foreign languages seems to me to be a ridiculous thing for you to do, in languages that are so common. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to look at the directory here on ProZ.com and see for yourself just how many translators there are here (and this is just a subset of all translators, remember) who specialise in that pair AND are native speakers of the target language. Then think "why should anyone choose me over them?".
None of that means you are throwing away time and/or money on an MA in Translation. Regardless of the languages involved, there will be many techniques which will be useful for your pair.
Sheila
The same goes for German. Your CV indicates a maximum of three months spent in Germany. There is absolutely no way of mastering this highly intricate language by spending a couple of semesters in a class room. Just forget about it.
Example: I chose French as my major in High School. My parents are fluent in French, the part of Germany they live in is truly bilingual, we spent pretty much every weekend in France. I am fluent in French. But I never lived in France. I wouldn't even DARE to translate FROM French into German. Why?
Here is where the marketing approach kicks in. Why would you want to be below average? The competition is tough.
Do what you can do best. Being the proverbial Jack of all trades, master of none will not further your career but ruin it beyond repair. Once a proofreader of your texts has claimed that your translation is not up to par, you are out for ever.
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 12:33
Member (2007)
English
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| An idea for discussion | Jul 7, 2012 |
I imagine you may be a little disillusioned now, Marelyne, and wondering where you fit into the translation world. I hope you aren't too put off because I'm sure you will do well translating into your strongest language, whatever it is.
Re-reading this thread, I was struck by another possibility, but one where I am almost totally ignorant: I wonder whether interpreting might be a good career choice for you. I know there are various types of interpreter and the jobs involved are ver... See more I imagine you may be a little disillusioned now, Marelyne, and wondering where you fit into the translation world. I hope you aren't too put off because I'm sure you will do well translating into your strongest language, whatever it is.
Re-reading this thread, I was struck by another possibility, but one where I am almost totally ignorant: I wonder whether interpreting might be a good career choice for you. I know there are various types of interpreter and the jobs involved are very different. Is there a market for a fluent multilingual speaker? I suspect that the "native turn of phrase" may not be quite so important to an interpreter, simply because a listener is much less critical about the finer points about language than a reader is likely to be. Don't think I'm saying "you don't have to be so good to be an interpreter" BTW. I tried it four times before deciding I could never manage to switch so quickly between languages. Small grammar errors may pass unnoticed, but the mental effort of listening to a message and supplying an equivalent message in another language, within seconds, totally floored me.
Is this something you have considered? What do others think? Any interpreters reading this?
Sheila ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I agree with Sheila | Jul 7, 2012 |
I agree with Sheila. I think you really have to translate into your strongest language. Otherwise, the results are really not that great. Aim for perfection. Good luck. If someone has only a few years of education, not you, let's say, in their L1, the person won't be able to translate well into that language, even if his or her accent is perfect. This might be a good asset for advertising in that language, voice-over, and things like that, but not for complex translation jobs.
| | | | | Hello Marylene | Jul 9, 2012 |
Welcome:)
Let me express some toughts, hopefully they can help you:)
If you studied in Italy from the age of 10 and got an Italian University degree, I suspect Italian is the language in which you are more proficient, not Romanian, after all you had to pass many exams in the Italian school not? "Medie, maturità and Laurea".
If you want you can send me some paper written by you in Italian, just to be sure, I see that now you have indicated only Ro... See more Welcome:)
Let me express some toughts, hopefully they can help you:)
If you studied in Italy from the age of 10 and got an Italian University degree, I suspect Italian is the language in which you are more proficient, not Romanian, after all you had to pass many exams in the Italian school not? "Medie, maturità and Laurea".
If you want you can send me some paper written by you in Italian, just to be sure, I see that now you have indicated only Romanian as your native language, the problem is that since you graduated in Italy, in my opinion your target language for translations is Italian.
You could indicate both in your profile (Romanian and Italian), explaining your situation inside your CV.
Good Luck! ▲ Collapse
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