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Translating from one's native language - feedback needed
Thread poster: Kelly Efird
Diana Obermeyer
Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:13
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Over-simplification Aug 12, 2014

Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:

Sarah Lewis-Morgan wrote:

I accept that there are some exceptions, such as the issue with languages like Danish, and Gitta Hovedskov's post...


You would only very rarely find a Danish person who would miswrite my first name, as Gitte is a very common name in Denmark, whereas Gitta is quite rare. ... It doesn't matter to me, I have old English friends who insist on spelling my name Gitta and I have given up correcting them. - My point is that it is essential, when translating, that you are instinctively aware of those little details, the little variations in the source language that you need to render correctly into the target language. And native speakers of the source language will often be better qualified for that...
As I have said before, native English speakers can, in many cases, produce better English texts than I can, but are they sure they get all the details from their Danish source texts right?


I recently had to proofread a translation, where the source text consisted almost entirely of adaptations of phrases and word plays. The agency was a little shocked to receive a heavily edited file from me - the German was perfect, but the translator didn't catch the connotations behind the English word plays and missed rather important insinuations.

In my humble opinion, the "only translate into your native language" stance is not much more than a simplification. Nativity does not guarantee a certain standard, it simply makes it more likely that the translator is able to render a text with an adequate choice of words. It is not absolute. It's a short-cut in the selection process, because most clients simply don't have the time or resources to assess each candidate thoroughly. If your language skills are insufficient to translate into a certain direction, then you shoot yourself in the foot trying to cater for that market - you spend too much time on a project and, if there are errors, you may loose a client. The market is big enough to focus on what you do best.
I mainly work with small direct clients who need one person for each language combination and I translate in both directions for them. The few agencies I work for tend to pick one direction and only send me work for that, as that fits in with their system. It doesn't make much difference to me, which direction they choose. It does, however, slightly affect the range of texts I will work on. There's maybe an 80% overlap, but certain subjects, I simply feel more comfortable in one language over the other.
Personally, I find it rather hypocritical that the nativity aspect is being played up a lot, while it appears common practice for translators to translate into both British and American English, German and Swiss German, Argentinian, Mexican and Spanish Spanish, etc. If register and fine-tuning really were the big issue behind these discussions, those double variant practices would receive far more attention.

[Edited at 2014-08-12 11:41 GMT]


 
Sarah Lewis-Morgan
Sarah Lewis-Morgan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:13
Member (2014)
German to English
+ ...
Good point Aug 12, 2014



That may be the best excuse for a typo I've ever heard...and I've heard a lot of them.

Hope you recover, that sounds painful.


As for this topic, my view is simple: if a native speaker cannot tell that you are a non-native after reading your translations, then you have the green light to translate into that language. This is a higher standard than most people understand, but not unattainable; there are several people who post regularly here on ProZ who meet this criterion.

The funniest thing is that the majority of people who demonstrate high proficiency in non-native English writing here on the forums do not actually have English listed as a language they translate into. Food for thought.

[Edited at 2014-08-12 11:16 GMT]


Thank you. Not only painful, but horribly inconvenient. I wouldn't recommend trying it!

You are quite right. The test is whether the native speaker can detect the non-native speaker. Only a native speaker can judge, but there are those who pass the test admirably, with which I would have no problem. Those who are here and demonstrating their proficiency obviously negate what I previously said, but they are not the norm (and are here because they are not).


 
564354352 (X)
564354352 (X)  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 21:13
Danish to English
+ ...
No apology necessary Aug 12, 2014

Sarah Lewis-Morgan wrote:

...
My sincere apologies. In my defence, I am typing with one broken hand and one badly bruised one and it's lucky I was even close - I do use my voice recognition s/w when translating, but I just use a couple of fingers when it's not much text.



No harm done and no offence taken

Hope you recover soon, sounds nasty...


 
Georgia Morg (X)
Georgia Morg (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:13
Portuguese to English
My experience Aug 12, 2014

I am in the middle of proofreading a long text that has been translated from Portuguese into English by a native Brazilian, who lives in the US. He has done a very good job. However, it is quite clear that a native speaker proof reader was needed. While there are no huge mistakes that would impede understanding, there are many, many problems with articles, prepositions, sentence structure in general. It just didn't "read" quite right. I would never, never translate OUT OF English into Portuguese... See more
I am in the middle of proofreading a long text that has been translated from Portuguese into English by a native Brazilian, who lives in the US. He has done a very good job. However, it is quite clear that a native speaker proof reader was needed. While there are no huge mistakes that would impede understanding, there are many, many problems with articles, prepositions, sentence structure in general. It just didn't "read" quite right. I would never, never translate OUT OF English into Portuguese. Why do it? leave it to the natives....Collapse


 
LilianNekipelov
LilianNekipelov  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:13
Russian to English
+ ...
You would not know how to spell any names in AE--automatically Aug 12, 2014

Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:

Sarah Lewis-Morgan wrote:

I accept that there are some exceptions, such as the issue with languages like Danish, and Gitta Hovedskov's post...


You would only very rarely find a Danish person who would miswrite my first name, as Gitte is a very common name in Denmark, whereas Gitta is quite rare. ... It doesn't matter to me, I have old English friends who insist on spelling my name Gitta and I have given up correcting them. - My point is that it is essential, when translating, that you are instinctively aware of those little details, the little variations in the source language that you need to render correctly into the target language. And native speakers of the source language will often be better qualified for that...

As I have said before, native English speakers can, in many cases, produce better English texts than I can, but are they sure they get all the details from their Danish source texts right?


They are all spelled differently or most of them, at least. You see: Anna, Anne, Ann, Kelly Keli, Keily, Keylee, Kayli and whatever one can come up with. Spelling is not the most important thing with regards to translation--it can always be fixed. The essence of good translation is in something else.


 
Neil Coffey
Neil Coffey  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:13
French to English
+ ...
The question is: is it commercially practical for you? Aug 12, 2014

Kelly Efird wrote:
There is more material (written or otherwise) available in English than there is in Spanish, so why can't I translate some of it into Spanish?


I would look at things this way round:

- a client expects a piece of work to a particular standard with particular criteria
- you need to decide whether you can meet those criteria, and whether the means you need to employ in order to do so are commercially viable.

In many cases of what is traditionally considered "professional" translation (but this is changing), one of the client's criteria is that the translation is indistinguishable from an original text written by an educated native speaker in the target language. And for many people in many cases, the most commercially viable means of achieving this (i.e. the means by which they can spend few enough hours and little enough money on proofreading in order to make enough money to pay their rent and buy enough fruit juice and camembert to sustain their metabolism) is to be a native speaker in the target language.

But the question ultimately is: what works for you?


 
564354352 (X)
564354352 (X)  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 21:13
Danish to English
+ ...
Attention to details of any kind Aug 13, 2014

LilianNekipelov wrote:

... Spelling is not the most important thing with regards to translation--it can always be fixed. The essence of good translation is in something else.


I agree to some extent, but getting a name wrong in any translation is an absolute no-no in my book. My point was simply that there are certain things native speakers of a source language will pick up instinctively and which will not cause them any kind of trouble, which may cause non-native speakers of the source language problems. And vice versa...


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 05:13
Japanese to English
+ ...
It isn't always possible in some languages Aug 13, 2014

Gitte Hovedskov, MCIL wrote:

LilianNekipelov wrote:

... Spelling is not the most important thing with regards to translation--it can always be fixed. The essence of good translation is in something else.


I agree to some extent, but getting a name wrong in any translation is an absolute no-no in my book. My point was simply that there are certain things native speakers of a source language will pick up instinctively and which will not cause them any kind of trouble, which may cause non-native speakers of the source language problems. And vice versa...



The readings (and Romanized forms) of Japanese names are sometimes impossible to know for certain just from the kanji. If you are lucky, the person is famous and you can find an article about them somewhere that has the reading for their name in parentheses after the kanji, but this isn't always the case. Of course the translator can just guess and leave a note, which is what I usually do.

This is something that even native Japanese speakers have trouble with, though, so it isn't really relevant to your main point about the native vs. non-native discussion, but I struggle with the spelling of names sometimes so I felt obliged to comment.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 04:13
Chinese to English
Native expertise always needed, in reading and writing Aug 13, 2014

Orrin Cummins wrote:

(names are hard)

The comment on names is right, I'm sure, but I think we should see it as one example of the kind of way in which natives read differently from non-natives, and we should be attuned to the importance of native readers as well as native writers. I'm normally on the "translate into your native language" side of the debate, but to be clear: I live in my source country, and I rely heavily on native speaker informants.

Chinese has this delightful phenomenon of piling up adjective phrases before the noun, and it can quickly become very confusing. Imagine "lengthy, troublesome doctor visits". Are all doctor visits both long and troublesome? Are some troublesome because they are long? Are only the troublesome visits long? Often context makes clear, but native speaker readers still have an edge over me in untying these particular knots.

(Not that they're always right, or that they always agree, of course! But they have an additional spidey sense which I don't have, and probably never will.)

So I'm all for translating into one's native language, but I say always keep a few source language informants in your back pocket.


 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 05:13
Japanese to English
+ ...
... Aug 13, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

Orrin Cummins wrote:

(names are hard)

The comment on names is right, I'm sure, but I think we should see it as one example of the kind of way in which natives read differently from non-natives, and we should be attuned to the importance of native readers as well as native writers. I'm normally on the "translate into your native language" side of the debate, but to be clear: I live in my source country, and I rely heavily on native speaker informants.

Chinese has this delightful phenomenon of piling up adjective phrases before the noun, and it can quickly become very confusing. Imagine "lengthy, troublesome doctor visits". Are all doctor visits both long and troublesome? Are some troublesome because they are long? Are only the troublesome visits long? Often context makes clear, but native speaker readers still have an edge over me in untying these particular knots.

(Not that they're always right, or that they always agree, of course! But they have an additional spidey sense which I don't have, and probably never will.)

So I'm all for translating into one's native language, but I say always keep a few source language informants in your back pocket.


I mean it's not just that names are hard...they are sometimes unknowable, even to a native speaker.

For example, my daughter's name is 光禮. I have yet to meet a native Japanese speaker who can correctly guess how it is pronounced.

That's why any time you fill out a form here in Japan, there is a place for you to write your name in kanji and another place directly above or below it to write it in kana, so that people know how to read it.

Unfortunately this information is not always provided in a translation.

The situation arises because parents can choose extremely obscure readings for the kanji in their child's name. And often there are several possible readings, so the best you can do in a translation is guess if you can't find anything online.

You make a good point though: a native Japanese speaker can guess the most common reading because of a lifetime of experience in seeing many different names and how they are pronounced. This is very difficult for a non-native to do unless the name is one with a very obvious reading. That's why I usually just ask my wife if I can't find it online--my guess is definitely not as good as hers.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 04:13
Chinese to English
I know how it's pronounced! Aug 13, 2014

Orrin Cummins wrote:

For example, my daughter's name is 光禮. I have yet to meet a native Japanese speaker who can correctly guess how it is pronounced.

With all the arrogance of Chinese speakers who couldn't care less how the Japanese mess up the pronunciation of *our* kanji, I can tell you that she's called Guangli

If you think Japanese names are hard for you, they're ten times worse for those of us who don't speak Japanese and can't search Japanese resources to find out - you just have to find some kana, I have to pray that there's an English transcription somewhere out there!


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 04:13
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
光禮 Aug 13, 2014

ひかり?

 
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 05:13
Japanese to English
+ ...
Nah Aug 13, 2014

みれい (Mirei)

Phil Hand wrote:

With all the arrogance of Chinese speakers who couldn't care less how the Japanese mess up the pronunciation of *our* kanji, I can tell you that she's called Guangli


She would probably disown her parents if she was...


 
Grace Shalhoub
Grace Shalhoub  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:13
French to English
+ ...
The languages I know best are not my mother tongue Aug 13, 2014

I have always had a problem with the definition of a mother tongue. I speak the langue my parents taught me, but can barely write it. I only learnt it as an adult, but won't even dare translating FROM it.

I ended up concluding that the languages I know best are the languages of the countries where I have lived and studied, the languages I spoke everyday and learnt at school and university, and they simply happen not to be the one spoken at home.

Simply put, I assume t
... See more
I have always had a problem with the definition of a mother tongue. I speak the langue my parents taught me, but can barely write it. I only learnt it as an adult, but won't even dare translating FROM it.

I ended up concluding that the languages I know best are the languages of the countries where I have lived and studied, the languages I spoke everyday and learnt at school and university, and they simply happen not to be the one spoken at home.

Simply put, I assume that if you have lived and worked in a different language, you can translate into it. This being said, it might work for general or very technical texts, but not for marketing/communication (or any creative writing).

Best of luck,

Grace

[Modifié le 2014-08-13 16:05 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:13
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Language proficiency Aug 13, 2014

Grace Shalhoub wrote:

Simply put, I assume that if you have lived and worked in a different language, you can translate into it.


Most people who have lived and worked in a different language, if they learned it as adults, do not learn it well enough to translate into it.


 
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