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New to working as a translator professionally and asking for your advice
Thread poster: Mo Conrady C
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.
Maria S. Loose, LL.M.  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 09:11
German to English
+ ...
not lower than 0.08 EUR per word of source language Apr 16, 2015

I once followed a webinar by Siegfried Armbruster, a member of this site, aimed at potential translation buyers. He warned against hiring translators for a rate of less than 0,08 EUR per word of source language for translations between English and German, because translators working for less were to be considered as unprofessional. That's also my impression. As a beginning translator without a degree in translation studies or any other relevant subject you shouldn't go lower than 0.08 in order t... See more
I once followed a webinar by Siegfried Armbruster, a member of this site, aimed at potential translation buyers. He warned against hiring translators for a rate of less than 0,08 EUR per word of source language for translations between English and German, because translators working for less were to be considered as unprofessional. That's also my impression. As a beginning translator without a degree in translation studies or any other relevant subject you shouldn't go lower than 0.08 in order to be considered as a professional.Collapse


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 16:11
Chinese to English
Alistair's got a point Apr 17, 2015

Mo Conrady C wrote:

He can sell and publish it any way he wants to. That is his business not mine.

I assume that patients can treat themselves if applying the method by themselves. Good grief...is that really the focus of the question here? I would say NO!

I have to add a word of caution here. There are many models of medicine out there, and many models of translation. You are choosing to engage with the riskiest kind of both at the same time. That does demand extra thought. Take it from a translator of 10 years: what you're proposing is atypical, and should not be undertaken lightly.

On the medicine side: the reason modern medicine is so safe is because it is highly institutionalised, with multiple checks and research at every level. When an alternative practitioner puts therapy instructions directly on his website for patients, he is circumventing all of the institutions which make medicine safe. You may agree with what he's doing, but be aware that it is an unorthodox form of medicine, with risks that you, as a non-medical professional, are not able to assess. It may be his business, but you are taking part in his business in a very direct way by helping him to market to a new audience.

On the translation side: The very strongest translation procedures go something like this:
Institution has a text which has been tested, researched, properly edited and proofread. It is passed to a professional translation buyer, who finds a specialist translation agency. The translation agency assesses the text, and assigns it to a medical specialist translator (who uses proper reference materials); it is then proofread by another language specialist and a medical specialist, before being given final checks by the agency, then checked by the buyer, then returned to the end user. That's a lot of pairs of highly qualified eyes.
Your translation procedure: end user finds a non-specialist family friend who translates it, and that's the end.

You came here asking for advice, and my advice is this: The very stripped-down translation procedure which you propose is NOT SUITABLE for a document which is a sensitive as the one you are talking about - giving instructions to patients on how to carry out a medical therapy. This is a question of proper systems to ensure safety, and you don't have them.

The high(ish) prices which professionals charge for translations are a reflection of the experience they have and the strong systems which they use to guarantee good results. They're not just numbers plucked out of thin air or from an internet forum.


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:11
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Different topics Apr 17, 2015

Hello Mo, and welcome on the largest platform for translators worldwide. You will get a lot of different advice, some of it useful, some of it not so useful.
In my opinion it is important to keep the different topics in your post nicely separated (in our answers) otherwise it might get a bit confusing.

There are various topics I identified, may be there are even more aspects:

Mo Conrady C wrote:
After some consideration I would like to get into the professional aspect of translating, but I do not have any degree in languages like so many of you.


It seems you want to get into the translation field. Fine, go for it, you will have to learn a lot, but you might be able to do this on the job. There are many translators out there without a degree in languages, and in my experience a degree in languages is not a requirement to become a successful translator.

I am a native German, who has lived in the US for 21 years. .

This is actually the first area, where I would put a question mark. I know, some colleagues are going to jump at my words soon. Are you sure that after 21 years in the US that your German is still up to date. The language changed (spelling, grammar, use of words) and you might have lost some of your abilities to write correct and good German.


.. but yesterday I was contacted by a doctor who wants a manual for one of his alternative treatment methods translated from English into German. It is about 80 pages with roughly 25K words.
This is undoubtedly the biggest project I would have ever translated so far.


25K words is a considerable large project, even for a experienced translator, which you are not. On the time line, I would advice you to plan for a minimum of 2 to 2 1/2 months for this projects. This will allow you to learn, to do some research and not to get too much under pressure (which will be high enough and growing anyway).


.
I have browsed the forum for info on what to charge, because I am completely unfamiliar with calculating a fair price.


Many "experienced" and "formally trained" translator are asking rates that are too low. But that is a completely different topic that does not apply to you. Also many buyers of translation services have not the slightest idea about the cost and the value of a good translation. I don't know enough about the project you are offered, except that it is from EN into DE, a manual in the area of alternative medicine and about 25 K words. It would be absolutely normal (not in the upper range at all) that a translator charges USD 0.12/source word plus USD 0.04/source word for proofreading. This would result in a price of USD 4000.- for this project, and as I said, this is not a high rate at all.

As mentioned before I also advice buyers of translation services not to accept so called "professional" translators who are asking less than EUR 0.08/source word because there is definitely something wrong with them.

Ok, but now back to your case, you are not "yet" a professional translator, and your customer has obviously no idea what budget is required for a professional translation. This opens a lot of possibilities for you. Sure, I would advice to ask for as much as possible, but taking on this project will allow you to learn a lot, to gain experience and to find out if translation is for you. If you want to work professionally in translation you should definitely start charging "ok" rates as soon as possible, but for this first job, just go for it.

.. but yesterday I was contacted by a doctor who wants a manual for one of his alternative treatment methods translated from English into German. It is about 80 pages with roughly 25K words.
This is undoubtedly the biggest project I would have ever translated so far. .....What would you advice me to do?


My advice. Independent of what you decide, it is VITAL that your translation is proofread/edited by a professional. I would for example advise to translate the first chapter and to send it to a proofreader. This will give you some feedback how good or bad your translation is. Try to find a mentor, either here on this site or on Facebook, e. g. in the Facebook group "Übersetzer/innen".

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me by mail (siegfried_armbruster at live.de).

[Edited at 2015-04-17 08:26 GMT]


 
Angela Malik
Angela Malik  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:11
German to English
+ ...
Honesty and a reality check Apr 17, 2015

Mo Conrady C wrote:

Thanks for everyone's frank feedback. Of course, I would like more positive input, but honesty and a reality check is what I need...

...Now getting insulting feedback was not what I expected, but I guess that is fair game when putting oneself out here.
The manual is published on the doctor's website and from what I understand he offers it as a digital download. But frankly that is not my concern, Alistair! He can sell and publish it any way he wants to. That is his business not mine.

I assume that patients can treat themselves if applying the method by themselves. Good grief...is that really the focus of the question here? I would say NO!


You said you wanted honesty and a reality check, so here it is:

You admit that you have little experience, that you're a little overwhelmed by this request to translate 25,000 words and you ask what to do. But then as professional translators with experience give you an idea of the risks involved and repeatedly recommend engaging a proofreader, you get defensive. It's like you have dollar signs over your eyes -- you're unwilling to dip into your profits by hiring a proofreader and not confident enough to pass the cost of proofreading on to the client, and you seem so keen to get the money that you're willing to overlook the risks that your inexperience poses to the readership of your translation.

You said you wanted to get into the professional world of translation, so here it is: a true professional has to take into account the risks involved. They have to ask themselves, "How many people will I put at risk if I f*!k up this translation?" If you're translating an email or a few pages for a friend, that risk is not high. It is significantly higher with a medical translation, and the fact that you don't seem concerned about that is highly unprofessional and very worrying. I also find it a little ironic, given that the medical field is subject to the oath to "do no harm".

Whatever you do, stay professional and make sure you "do no harm" by taking the necessary steps and precautions to ensure that you are not putting people at risk.


 
Rachel Waddington
Rachel Waddington  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:11
Dutch to English
+ ...
Serious point Apr 17, 2015

Mo Conrady C wrote:
And about being so unsure of myself that I have to post here - I thought that is what these forums are for...to seek advise. Others have done that before in a very similar manner.
You are plain rude in your approach and that is not helpful. I hope this is not your usual way of responding to people who look for help.


Alistair may have come across as rude, but the point he was making is a serious one. There is the potential here for people to suffer real harm if your translation is not up to the mark. You should bear this in mind when deciding whether to take this on or not.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:11
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Bottom line: legally responsible Apr 17, 2015

Rachel Waddington wrote:
There is the potential here for people to suffer real harm if your translation is not up to the mark

If they do themselves harm and then find your translation of a critical term is incorrect, or there's a missing negative, whatever, you could in theory end up being sued. It happens! And if that someone is a breadwinner who can no longer work we aren't going to be talking a few k dollars.

Look on the bright side: if you end up turning down this job, which will bring in peanuts for weeks to come, you'll be free to accept a 2000-word general translation for $0.12 per word tomorrow.


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:11
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
I'd be hesitant ... Apr 17, 2015

Mo, I'm a professional freelance translator with more than 30 years' experience but I'd be extremely hesitant to take on a first big job which is way outside my field of expertise, such as medicine. Although, like you, I've plenty of experience of medical matters in my own life and the lives of friends and family (as most of us have!) medicine is so specialised and the possibility of serious errors is so great.
What fields have you worked in as an employee? Wouldn't it be better, at least
... See more
Mo, I'm a professional freelance translator with more than 30 years' experience but I'd be extremely hesitant to take on a first big job which is way outside my field of expertise, such as medicine. Although, like you, I've plenty of experience of medical matters in my own life and the lives of friends and family (as most of us have!) medicine is so specialised and the possibility of serious errors is so great.
What fields have you worked in as an employee? Wouldn't it be better, at least at first, to seek translation work in those areas? You'd feel much more confident.
In my case, I was previously employed in the fields of banking, finance, property development and the legal aspects of those fields so, although I'm not passionately interested in banking (!), those are the areas in which I most often translate - and with confidence which has increased over the years.
Best wishes, whatever you decide.
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Diana Obermeyer
Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:11
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Look at it from a different angle Apr 17, 2015

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

25K words is a considerable large project, even for a experienced translator, which you are not. On the time line, I would advice you to plan for a minimum of 2 to 2 1/2 months for this projects. This will allow you to learn, to do some research and not to get too much under pressure (which will be high enough and growing anyway).



[Edited at 2015-04-17 06:55 GMT]


You are doubting the proposed prices because it seems like a lot of money.
With little experience, the above estimate is probably realistic.
For someone who is experienced in this specific field, it may be closer to a month.
What do other professionals in your target market with a similar standard of understanding as you are required to convey earn per month? How in-depth is this manual?

http://www.praktischarzt.de/blog/einstiegsgehalt-als-assistenzarzt/
http://berufslexikon.at/beruf1879_15

In comparison, you'd earn about 1400 Euros/month working in a snack bar.

Back to the proofreading issue.
You arranging a proofreader and your client arranging a proofreader at the end is not the same thing.
I don't hire one for all my projects, but I frequently do.
It affects both the quality and the time taken to complete the project.
Without a proofreader, the review phase of the project accounts for 30-35% of the total time taken. So, if I take 7 hours to translate a text, I will need another 3 hours to review it. I also need a break between translation and review, so there will simply be a gap. I usually just switch to another project for a while.
With 'my own' proofreader this drops to about 20%. Why? It's much easier for someone else to spot my mistakes than it is for me.
When I work with a monolingual proofreader, our workflow looks something like this:
1. I translate.
2. I run the QA on my CAT tool.
3. I do a quick bilingual review
4. I run a spell-check and consistency checker through the target text.
5. The monolingual proofreader goes through the target text, corrects errors, adds comments and makes suggestions.
6. I review the proofreaders input and accept or reject changes.
7. I may make additional changes now that I gained a bit of distance from the text.
8. Sometimes a proposed change will change the meaning - but they don't know that because they haven't seen the source text. In that case, I will ask them what they didn't like about that passage and explain the intended meaning.
9. We may have a brief discussion about it and/or do some further research.
10. I read through the target text and may make additional changes.
11. Then, I do another bilingual review and may make further changes.
12. I read through the target text and may make additional changes.
13. Depending on how much I've changed this time around and how confident I am about it, I may send the text to the proofreader again. I would then repeat point 6.

If your client hires a proofreader, the process stops at point 5. The big issue with this is that nobody will know whether or not the meaning has been preserved for the entire text. I don't operate in the medical field at all. People may lose money if I mistranslate something which suffices as motivation to take all reasonable steps to make sure I don't. Health is a big responsibility.


 
Silvia Di Profio
Silvia Di Profio  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:11
Member (2015)
English to Italian
my two cents Apr 17, 2015

Hi Mo,
and welcome here (I hope you don't give up just for negative advices! Take everyone of them as useful tips)
I'm particularly interested in this thread as an almost newcomer myself (just a couple of years in translation) and, moreover, as I'm involved in what you call 'alternative medicine' for almost twenty years (I'm still working in field).
Even if I know by experience that several 'methods' are far from real ''medical therapies', and I agree with you when you say cont
... See more
Hi Mo,
and welcome here (I hope you don't give up just for negative advices! Take everyone of them as useful tips)
I'm particularly interested in this thread as an almost newcomer myself (just a couple of years in translation) and, moreover, as I'm involved in what you call 'alternative medicine' for almost twenty years (I'm still working in field).
Even if I know by experience that several 'methods' are far from real ''medical therapies', and I agree with you when you say content is not your business, on the other hand I think you MUST worry about the content, i.e. your field knowledge is enough, your target specialistic language is updated enough, your translation process is established enough for the proposed project. This IS your business.
I've quite accepted, making my firts steps, source texts dealing with medical devices, physical therapies, Chinese traditional medicine, however working tightly with the purchaser, bilingual and just overwhelmed with tasks to translate by themselves. Private projects, not so large, safely completed in the right time.

So, my advice is a little bit different from the previous: why don't you entrust the project to a professional translator (a mentor who can follow you in the future would be the best) and keep for yourself the proofreading. You could learn so much from him/her, start a sound career with a large project, refresh your target language, open a new specialization window to improve and, finally, be introduced through your first relationships in translation business.

Best wishes, anyway.
Silvia


[Edited at 2015-04-17 12:30 GMT]
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Mo Conrady C
Mo Conrady C  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:11
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Didn't mean to sound insulting -sorry Apr 17, 2015

Alistair Gainey wrote:

Now getting insulting feedback was not what I expected, but I guess that is fair game when putting oneself out here.
The manual is published on the doctor's website and from what I understand he offers it as a digital download. But frankly that is not my concern, Alistair! He can sell and publish it any way he wants to. That is his business not mine.

I assume that patients can treat themselves if applying the method by themselves. Good grief...is that really the focus of the question here? I would say NO!

And about being so unsure of myself that I have to post here - I thought that is what these forums are for...to seek advise. Others have done that before in a very similar manner.
You are plain rude in your approach and that is not helpful. I hope this is not your usual way of responding to people who look for help.


OK, I was too frivolous. Not the right tone for someone looking for assistance. I apologise. To be fair, I did point out that you were perfectly entitled (indeed, correct, I would add) to seek help here. That, as you say, is the point of these forums. And I didn't mean to imply that you wouldn't do a good job; I was just wondering about the risks involved. I would, however, suggest that the publication method/price your translation might sell at/number of copies it might sell is your concern, because it might affect how much you can expect to charge. For example, if your client is selling the book at a dollar a download and you charge 2000 dollars, he would need to sell 2000 copies to recoup his investment in your translation (and that's not taking into account any earnings the author himself might get). Is that realistic? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here.


Alistair,
Thank you for your new response. No harm done.
I have no clue how he is going to sell the manual. I checked his website(s) and actually could not find this particular manual on either one. It might not be for sale but come with equipment or CDs?
The more I read it the more it seems clear that it is for professionals ONLY, so I hope that we can put that part aside now. This method is a no-drug treatment. It is something like "acupuncture without needles". I cannot reveal more out of confidentiality.
Doctors like him give seminars and sessions nationwide and in other countries sometimes for a good money and sell their material to treat others - which is how they make the majority of their income. I would put them in the category of healers with their alternative method of treatment.


 
Mo Conrady C
Mo Conrady C  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:11
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Not lower than 0.08 per word... Apr 17, 2015

Maria S. Loose, LL.M. wrote:

I once followed a webinar by Siegfried Armbruster, a member of this site, aimed at potential translation buyers. He warned against hiring translators for a rate of less than 0,08 EUR per word of source language for translations between English and German, because translators working for less were to be considered as unprofessional. That's also my impression. As a beginning translator without a degree in translation studies or any other relevant subject you shouldn't go lower than 0.08 in order to be considered as a professional.


Maria,

Your input is also very appreciated. As a beginner it is difficult to know what to charge, which is why I sought help in this forum. Thank you for your info!


 
Mo Conrady C
Mo Conrady C  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:11
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Alistair's got a point Apr 17, 2015

Phil Hand wrote:

On the medicine side: the reason modern medicine is so safe is because it is highly institutionalised, with multiple checks and research at every level. When an alternative practitioner puts therapy instructions directly on his website for patients, he is circumventing all of the institutions which make medicine safe. You may agree with what he's doing, but be aware that it is an unorthodox form of medicine, with risks that you, as a non-medical professional, are not able to assess. It may be his business, but you are taking part in his business in a very direct way by helping him to market to a new audience.



Phil,

Thank you for your point of view.
However, I never said that the manual was indeed intended for patients. I said initially that I assumed that it could also be used by patients, which I now take back after having read more of it. This doctor is not circumventing anything that makes (alternative) medicine safe. I highly regret making that statement which clearly was a mistake.

I also understand that there is a good reason why certain fees are charged for translations. At least I am beginning to understand it better and better.


 
Mo Conrady C
Mo Conrady C  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:11
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Different topics Apr 17, 2015

Siegfried Armbruster wrote:

Hello Mo, and welcome on the largest platform for translators worldwide. You will get a lot of different advice, some of it useful, some of it not so useful.
.........
This is actually the first area, where I would put a question mark. I know, some colleagues are going to jump at my words soon. Are you sure that after 21 years in the US that your German is still up to date. The language changed (spelling, grammar, use of words) and you might have lost some of your abilities to write correct and good German.
...........
25K words is a considerable large project, even for a experienced translator, which you are not. On the time line, I would advice you to plan for a minimum of 2 to 2 1/2 months for this projects. This will allow you to learn, to do some research and not to get too much under pressure (which will be high enough and growing anyway).
.........
Ok, but now back to your case, you are not "yet" a professional translator, and your customer has obviously no idea what budget is required for a professional translation. This opens a lot of possibilities for you. Sure, I would advice to ask for as much as possible, but taking on this project will allow you to learn a lot, to gain experience and to find out if translation is for you. If you want to work professionally in translation you should definitely start charging "ok" rates as soon as possible, but for this first job, just go for it.
............
My advice. Independent of what you decide, it is VITAL that your translation is proofread/edited by a professional. I would for example advise to translate the first chapter and to send it to a proofreader. This will give you some feedback how good or bad your translation is. Try to find a mentor, either here on this site or on Facebook, e. g. in the Facebook group "Übersetzer/innen".

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me by mail (siegfried_armbruster at live.de).

[Edited at 2015-04-17 08:26 GMT]


Dear Siegfried,

Thank you very, very much for your non-condescending and detailed reply, which I will take to heart. You have been very helpful.


 
Mo Conrady C
Mo Conrady C  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:11
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Honesty and a reality check Apr 17, 2015

Angela Rimmer wrote:

You said you wanted honesty and a reality check, so here it is:

You admit that you have little experience, that you're a little overwhelmed by this request to translate 25,000 words and you ask what to do. But then as professional translators with experience give you an idea of the risks involved and repeatedly recommend engaging a proofreader, you get defensive. It's like you have dollar signs over your eyes -- you're unwilling to dip into your profits by hiring a proofreader and not confident enough to pass the cost of proofreading on to the client, and you seem so keen to get the money that you're willing to overlook the risks that your inexperience poses to the readership of your translation.


Angela,
were did you get it that I am defensive and keen on the money??? You must have read my posts with sunglasses on. I am getting rather upset with aggressive replies like yours. Why do you even respond to someone who is looking to be mentored here? You are very immature in your own approach.

When people quoted me the fees for proofreading, I said that I would not get enough money to be able to hire a proofreader. I am new to this. I am trying to learn what is needed to do it right. That's why I am asking questions.

You said you wanted to get into the professional world of translation, so here it is: a true professional has to take into account the risks involved. They have to ask themselves, "How many people will I put at risk if I f*!k up this translation?" If you're translating an email or a few pages for a friend, that risk is not high. It is significantly higher with a medical translation, and the fact that you don't seem concerned about that is highly unprofessional and very worrying. I also find it a little ironic, given that the medical field is subject to the oath to "do no harm".

Whatever you do, stay professional and make sure you "do no harm" by taking the necessary steps and precautions to ensure that you are not putting people at risk.


You judge quickly and you judge with little ground to come to your conclusions other than what you assume. Don't lecture me about the Hippocratic Oath.
If you do not have the willingness to assist people in a kind and appropriate manner, then please stay away from their posts.


 
Mo Conrady C
Mo Conrady C  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:11
English to German
TOPIC STARTER
Serious point Apr 17, 2015

Rachel Waddington wrote:

Alistair may have come across as rude, but the point he was making is a serious one. There is the potential here for people to suffer real harm if your translation is not up to the mark. You should bear this in mind when deciding whether to take this on or not.




Rachel,

Thanks for your reply.
It is one thing to be rude and another trying to make a valid point.
I am somewhat surprised that good manners seem not to necessarily be part of the professionalism here. Anyone should be treated kindly but as a newcomer I did not expect to be attacked like this by some people.
One can say the same things that have been said here without being insulting.

And yes, the quality of any translation is very important. I am not an uneducated person, with no knowledge of anything, who just happened to wake up one morning and thought "oh, why don't I become a translator, because my life is so boring?"

Because I believe in quality work, I looked for a website like this one to find answers to my many questions by people who have been working in the field for years and would like to extend a helping hand.


 
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