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Why I don\'t translate out of my native language...
Thread poster: Emma Cox
OlafK
OlafK
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:11
English to German
+ ...
I tried not to get involved in this discussion... Oct 11, 2002

but my fingers were itching. There are so many issues here and money seems to be the most important one. Several people said that they translated into foreign languages because they needed the money. I have been asked to do translations into English several times and I always refused because I didn\'t want to damage my reputation and of course it would take me much longer and therefore wouldn\'t be so profitable. I agree fully with Mary in that respect (and all others). I don\'t think it would b... See more
but my fingers were itching. There are so many issues here and money seems to be the most important one. Several people said that they translated into foreign languages because they needed the money. I have been asked to do translations into English several times and I always refused because I didn\'t want to damage my reputation and of course it would take me much longer and therefore wouldn\'t be so profitable. I agree fully with Mary in that respect (and all others). I don\'t think it would be a good business move at all.



I also noticed that most of the people who are against translation into a foreign language are native English speakers while the pro-party consists mainly of native speakers of other languages. My theory is that English mother tongue translators are quite rare so the existing ones get enough work not to bother with translations into other languages. Let\'s face it, English speakers are very lazy when it comes to learning foreign languages, so there must be a lack of mother tongue translators working into English. That\'s probably why I am occasionally asked to do it and with other source languages the situation must be even worse.



Then there are big differences in fields of translation. Many ProZ members seem to be primarily technical translators. Since many technical texts are very formulaic and repetitive I think maybe, just maybe, it\'s possible to do a more or less acceptable translation job into a foreign language if you have the right expertise and tools but I am not so sure. But in the fields of marketing, arts and literature I sometimes get texts that are so difficult that I really struggle. And I don\'t think I struggle because I am a bad translator but because these texts are full of ambiguities (that\'s when I ask a KudoZ question and might need the help of a native speaker of the source language but not necessarily a translator)and very often they have to be rephrased completely to hit the right tone for the target audience. You need in-depth knowledge of both cultures, a native speaker feeling for the target language, and writing skills in order to cope with such a job, not to mention the specialist terminology that creeps up in marketing texts when you least expect it. Well, a lecture on translation seems to be a bit out of place here but I have a feeling that not all 40.000 ProZ members know what translation entails.



I just don\'t believe you can have four very different target languages and cover every possible field of expertise. Actually, I yet have to see an acceptable translation by a non-native translator.

And by the way, I don\'t think the number of KudoZ points proves anything but I see the quality of answers provided and I have a rough idea whose answers I can trust. In general I trust people who know there own limits rather than those who brag about what geniuses they are. Strangely enough, some of the people whose expertise I trust almost blindly seem to share my view while none of them takes up the opposite stance.



And Magda, the answer to your question lies in the question itself.
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Claudia Iglesias
Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 09:11
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
This is the point Oct 11, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-10 15:51, suesimons wrote:

I agree with you completely, Emma. I don\'t know an agency that would offer translation work to anyone but a native speaker anyway, however, good their knowledge of both languages. I live partially in Portugal and also speak fluently but, as you say, wouldnt even contemplate doing English>Portuguese as a professional job.





I just want to show that ... See more
Quote:


On 2002-10-10 15:51, suesimons wrote:

I agree with you completely, Emma. I don\'t know an agency that would offer translation work to anyone but a native speaker anyway, however, good their knowledge of both languages. I live partially in Portugal and also speak fluently but, as you say, wouldnt even contemplate doing English>Portuguese as a professional job.





I just want to show that this kind of statements, so hermetic, giving no chance to anybody to show that he\'s able to translate to more than one language is what I discuss.

(Sorry Sue, it\'s not about you, it\'s about what you say) ▲ Collapse


 
mckinnc
mckinnc  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:11
French to English
+ ...
Careful Laszlo - Real professionals are watching! Oct 11, 2002

[quote]

On 2002-10-10 15:53, bochkor wrote:



Real professionals are watching!



Better watch what you say then Laszlo!





 
Konstantin Lakshin
Konstantin Lakshin  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:11
Member (2017)
English to Russian
+ ...
Getting away with murder? Oct 11, 2002

I am as much of a non-native speaker as it gets. And I do (have the nerve to) translate into a form of bastadized English.



Why? Because (a) some end-users find it easy to follow, and (b) some native editors find it easy to edit.



I am good at understanding source documents and disregarding their oddities, and I may be able to construct a text that sounds plausible enough by recycling English bits and piece I have seen before. But my English sucks. Still,
... See more
I am as much of a non-native speaker as it gets. And I do (have the nerve to) translate into a form of bastadized English.



Why? Because (a) some end-users find it easy to follow, and (b) some native editors find it easy to edit.



I am good at understanding source documents and disregarding their oddities, and I may be able to construct a text that sounds plausible enough by recycling English bits and piece I have seen before. But my English sucks. Still, it seems that many readers prefer misplaced articles, awkward word order and poor cadence they can understand immediately to carefully crafted native writings that do not belong in their own language (the latter being an engineering dialect, oil patch slang, legalese, etc. rather than good English). What should I do to set them straight?

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PAS
PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:11
Polish to English
+ ...
too native or not too native Oct 11, 2002

1. I assume that \"native language\" means \"the first in which you uttered comprehensible words\". There are exceptions (vide Patricia Fierro\'s post).



2. Millions of people are dyslectic, dysgraphic, what have you - many people make spelling and grammar mistakes even if they only speak one language.



3. My own, private and personal criteria for \"nativity\": In what language do you _think_ in everyday life (when shopping, in the shower, washing dishes e
... See more
1. I assume that \"native language\" means \"the first in which you uttered comprehensible words\". There are exceptions (vide Patricia Fierro\'s post).



2. Millions of people are dyslectic, dysgraphic, what have you - many people make spelling and grammar mistakes even if they only speak one language.



3. My own, private and personal criteria for \"nativity\": In what language do you _think_ in everyday life (when shopping, in the shower, washing dishes etc.)?.



Cheers again,



Pawel
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PAS
PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:11
Polish to English
+ ...
one last thing Oct 11, 2002

Let him who is without... etc.

 
Roberta Anderson
Roberta Anderson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 13:11
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
past threads about this same issue Oct 11, 2002

Hi, Emma.

Thanks for trying to lead us back to the original issue...

This was also raised some time back in an Italian forum thread (http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&post=6873#6873) and lead to some interesting exchange of ideas and experiences; it was then picke
... See more
Hi, Emma.

Thanks for trying to lead us back to the original issue...

This was also raised some time back in an Italian forum thread (http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&post=6873#6873) and lead to some interesting exchange of ideas and experiences; it was then picked up in an English thread (http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&post=6823#6823)



I think you might find them interesting and constructive.



Roberta
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John Kinory (X)
John Kinory (X)
Local time: 12:11
English to Hebrew
+ ...
We agree, yet again :-) Oct 11, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-11 01:01, OlafK wrote:

Since many technical texts are very formulaic and repetitive I think maybe, just maybe, it\'s possible to do a more or less acceptable translation job into a foreign language if you have the right expertise and tools but I am not so sure ... You need in-depth knowledge of both cultures, a native speaker feeling for the target language, and writing skills in order to cope with such a job, not... See more
Quote:


On 2002-10-11 01:01, OlafK wrote:

Since many technical texts are very formulaic and repetitive I think maybe, just maybe, it\'s possible to do a more or less acceptable translation job into a foreign language if you have the right expertise and tools but I am not so sure ... You need in-depth knowledge of both cultures, a native speaker feeling for the target language, and writing skills in order to cope with such a job, not to mention the specialist terminology that creeps up in marketing texts when you least expect it ...

I just don\'t believe you can have four very different target languages and cover every possible field of expertise. Actually, I yet have to see an acceptable translation by a non-native translator ...





I translate a lot of very technical stuff from German into English. Take it from me, sentence construction even in the driest of electronic engineering texts is so different, that you need in-depth understanding of Germanic thought-processes to translate them.

Incidentally: I have been translating from German (into 2 target languages) for a great many years. I wouldn\'t dream of working INTO the former.

Thumbs up to all the rest.



John
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Emma Cox
Emma Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:11
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thanks Roberta... Oct 11, 2002

this was interesting to read...



This morning I actually visited a small agency for which I am doing some sales work, and we discussed this issue at some length too.



We came to the conclusion that it all depends... We have all seen the most dreadful examples of translation which were obviously carried out by someone with a Collins Gem dictionary (ie, sqwid in shrimps spit and Grilled Odd Fish!!). I have also seen translations which don\'t sound 100% nativ
... See more
this was interesting to read...



This morning I actually visited a small agency for which I am doing some sales work, and we discussed this issue at some length too.



We came to the conclusion that it all depends... We have all seen the most dreadful examples of translation which were obviously carried out by someone with a Collins Gem dictionary (ie, sqwid in shrimps spit and Grilled Odd Fish!!). I have also seen translations which don\'t sound 100% native, but will do for the purpose for which they are intended.



However, to market yourself as a xxx > English translator on Proz with a BASIC level of English is not a good self-marketing exercise, just the same as if I were to offer Legal or Medical translations. I do not want to be responsible for injuring someone, professional indemnity insurance or not...



I think it all depends on the circumstances, but I am glad that nobody took me on as a translator into Portuguese when I was 22 even if I was a top language Graduate from my year...
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Pernille Chapman
Pernille Chapman  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:11
Member (2004)
English to Danish
+ ...
Well, sorry, but it works for me... Oct 11, 2002

There seems to be a deep-rooted belief in the translation community, not least in academic circles, that it\'s almost criminal to attempt to translate into anything other than your native language. I\'ve heard lots of arguments like the above, but nevertheless, I like to think that I\'m proving at least some of them wrong by regularly producing translations into what I prefer to call my \"second language\". I don\'t want to spend a lot of time proving my point (I\'ve got far too much work to do!... See more
There seems to be a deep-rooted belief in the translation community, not least in academic circles, that it\'s almost criminal to attempt to translate into anything other than your native language. I\'ve heard lots of arguments like the above, but nevertheless, I like to think that I\'m proving at least some of them wrong by regularly producing translations into what I prefer to call my \"second language\". I don\'t want to spend a lot of time proving my point (I\'ve got far too much work to do!) but please allow me to give you an example of why it may not always be ideal to work into your native or \"first\" language:

I\'ve been doing a lot of work recently for a clothing company, translating newsletter and web-site texts from my native language into my second. The style and terminology used is very specific, and I readily admit that a lot of it is new to me. HOWEVER - in most cases, I know exactly what they\'re talking about, and what the correct term or expression is in English, simply because this is the language I\'m surrounded by 24 hours a day (and has been for the past 11 years). As a matter of fact, I\'m finding it gradually more and more difficult to work into my \"first\" language, because I\'m losing touch with it (it\'s constantly developing, and a lot faster than English!)Claudia has already touched on some of the issues involved; surely, if you use a language daily, both in colloquial and formal contexts, you\'re bound to eventually reach \"native\" standard, whatever that may be? Whether your work requires little or much proofing must depend on your personal abilities, not on some \"native-or-not\"-tag, which in my case at least is becoming less and less relevant, the longer I spend away from my native country.
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Ursula Peter-Czichi
Ursula Peter-Czichi  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:11
German to English
+ ...
The clients will set 'them' straight! Oct 11, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-11 09:01, Lakshin wrote:

....What should I do to set them straight?







You hit the point:

Hopefully, the client will have a sample/test translation. Most clients know what their needs are.



In a conversation, is listening more important than talking?



Please, let the clients judge!



This topic has ... See more
Quote:


On 2002-10-11 09:01, Lakshin wrote:

....What should I do to set them straight?







You hit the point:

Hopefully, the client will have a sample/test translation. Most clients know what their needs are.



In a conversation, is listening more important than talking?



Please, let the clients judge!



This topic has caused more trouble in this forum than any other. Personally, I trust my colleagues at ProZ to deliver excellent jobs to their clients. Most people do know themselves what jobs they can/cannot do.

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John Kinory (X)
John Kinory (X)
Local time: 12:11
English to Hebrew
+ ...
There seems to be a conflation of terms Oct 11, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-11 16:52, plc wrote:

There seems to be a deep-rooted belief in the translation community, not least in academic circles, that it\'s almost criminal to attempt to translate into anything other than your native language. I\'ve heard lots of arguments like the above, but nevertheless, I like to think that I\'m proving at least some of them wrong by regularly producing translations into what I prefer to call my \"seco... See more
Quote:


On 2002-10-11 16:52, plc wrote:

There seems to be a deep-rooted belief in the translation community, not least in academic circles, that it\'s almost criminal to attempt to translate into anything other than your native language. I\'ve heard lots of arguments like the above, but nevertheless, I like to think that I\'m proving at least some of them wrong by regularly producing translations into what I prefer to call my \"second language\" ... surely, if you use a language daily, both in colloquial and formal contexts, you\'re bound to eventually reach \"native\" standard, whatever that may be?




Native language is NOT the same as mother-tongue. In this context, it is precisely what you describe: the language you are constantly immersed in. To that extent, it is possible to have more than one native language.



The problem, as I and many see it (perhaps including Emma), is that there are many translators who have never spent much time in a country that speaks their claimed target language. These are the people who should desist from doing the harm they do to the profession. Earlier today I visited a Proz language community, where people who live in a South American country (and don\'t seem to have close personal links to an English-speaking one) offer very strange \'translations\' into English: \'Light eyes brunette\' [sic] was far from being the worst (contact me for the URLs, if you want). What are these people thinking of? And, Ursula: no, they quite clearly do not know what they are capable of.
[addsig]
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Herbert Fipke
Herbert Fipke  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:11
English to German
+ ...
What is native and what is acquired? Oct 13, 2002

Hi Folks!

First of all, I would like to emphasize that I am a German native speaker who gets quite close to English by job, travel and interest. I said \"quite close\", and thats what it is all about. I can fool around with friends in English and I can also understand almost any kind of text. I also translate into English as long as we talk about \"internal information\" which is just to give the recipient an idea of what is in the source text. I will never translate a document into En
... See more
Hi Folks!

First of all, I would like to emphasize that I am a German native speaker who gets quite close to English by job, travel and interest. I said \"quite close\", and thats what it is all about. I can fool around with friends in English and I can also understand almost any kind of text. I also translate into English as long as we talk about \"internal information\" which is just to give the recipient an idea of what is in the source text. I will never translate a document into English with an official character whatsoever or which will be \"open to the public\". I do a lot of PR and marketing and it is big fun reading phrases that tell a total different story behind their wording. Purposeful ambiguity is about the highest level a language can get to. Apart from the fact that I cannot understand most of the REAL background of an English marketing text, I can quite easily translate it into German, but never, never the other way.



There exists indeed a clear definition among linguists of what a native speaker is, and I\'m afraid I have to disagree with you, John:



Native and mother tongue IS indeed the same thing.

Native means \"born\", or if you prefer, \"born into\". It is the language your family and playmates are talking to you when you were a kid. That\'s about it.



From a widely accepted scientific point of view, humans are capable of learning ONLY ONE language RIGHT in their life. And this happens very very early (between the second and the sixth year of a kid\'s life).

And it depends solely on the individual, if he/she is able to acquire a second language as good as his/her first one. This most frequently happens in families where parents derive from different cultures, or where the awful refugee thing happens to a little child.

There are, of course, people who can really speak two or even more languages quite perfect, but those are only the exception to the rule. You bet: they all have an international background in their family.



Language is not a thing that can be separated from the culture it is embedded into.

Language is just one part of human communication skills which also include gestures, the momentary expression of the face, and - very important - the string of communication which has not been expressed in a certain situation on purpose. Language is highly fugative. The same moment it is invented, it has already been gone and changed again.

That is one of the reasons computers will never learn. They are a static thing, language is highly dynamic. It is completely intuitive.



All these communication forms that cannot be expressed (or seen) in a text can only be sensed by a real native speaker who GREW UP with them.



This is also the main reason why moving to another country to learn the language as a grown-up will never work. You will always miss the natural way of a kid that sucks up its environment just by being there. This just happens, and it happens only once in everybody\'s life: between 2 and 6. The brain is like a harddisc that cannot be re-formatted. Once the boot sector is defined it stays that way. Anything that comes later is \"just\" learned to a certain degree. Some of us are quite good at that, other not. And it is in no way owing to them, it\'s just a matter of genes.



As in my opinion, all these facts are the reason why people are always fighting each other on languages.



And - very important:

All those who can find errors (typos and grammar) in my posting may keep them: They are free of charge....



Have a nice weekend!



Herbert
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Joze Sveticic
Joze Sveticic
Slovenia
Local time: 13:11
Slovenian to English
+ ...
I'm new, so I may not know a lot of things... Oct 13, 2002

... but our agency employs native speakers as language editors - so I can translate into English and they edit the text, make it sound English, and later whip me for bastardising their beloved mothertongue so much.

Isn\'t that the case anywhere else?


 
lagunali
lagunali
Local time: 06:11
Turkish to English
+ ...
attaining native level by Language Immersion Programs Oct 13, 2002

I did not get the chance to read all the postings but it seems like most of the opinions are from the translators and native speakers of Indo-European languages.



Considering the fact that, over 300 million “young” people are learning English and/or Indo European languages in China, and over 300 million “young” people are learning English and/or Indo-European languages from non-Indo-European language speaking countries, one might be able to realize the fact that the
... See more
I did not get the chance to read all the postings but it seems like most of the opinions are from the translators and native speakers of Indo-European languages.



Considering the fact that, over 300 million “young” people are learning English and/or Indo European languages in China, and over 300 million “young” people are learning English and/or Indo-European languages from non-Indo-European language speaking countries, one might be able to realize the fact that the boundaries for being a native/acquired for a specific language should not be as strict as it is defined by messages above.



Today, Acquisition of an Indo-European language in a non-Indo-European Language speaking country-in other words Third World Country, is a necessity rather than a need. If you look at the elementary or high school curriculum of any non-Indo European language speaking country – you will find the remarkable emphasis on foreign language teaching with the utilization of “ Full Second Language Immersion Program”. I believe that, a student who had gone through a Full Second Language Immersion Program and had the opportunity to experience the language for several years in the country that the language is spoken, will likely be able to attain the proficiency and native level of that particular language.

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