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Why I don\'t translate out of my native language...
Thread poster: Emma Cox
LJC (X)
LJC (X)
France
Local time: 11:58
French to English
+ ...
I have to disagree with Nefise... Oct 14, 2002

... although it probably depends on what the translaton is for.



I do not consider my French is of a good enough standard for publication - and I have been \'immersed\' in French for 13 years! I do occasionally translate letters into French but I always have them proofread by a French native. Although I think in French (though not all the time), my English phraseology still tends to slip in. It also takes me far too long.



So my personal opinion is: \'Y
... See more
... although it probably depends on what the translaton is for.



I do not consider my French is of a good enough standard for publication - and I have been \'immersed\' in French for 13 years! I do occasionally translate letters into French but I always have them proofread by a French native. Although I think in French (though not all the time), my English phraseology still tends to slip in. It also takes me far too long.



So my personal opinion is: \'Yes\' for information; \'No\' for publication.
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John Kinory (X)
John Kinory (X)
Local time: 10:58
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Reply to Herbert Oct 14, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-10-13 02:06, Fipke wrote:

There exists indeed a clear definition among linguists of what a native speaker is, and I\'m afraid I have to disagree with you, John:

Native and mother tongue IS indeed the same thing.



Native means \"born\", or if you prefer, \"born into\". It is the language your family and playmates are talking to you when you were a kid. That\'s about it.


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Quote:


On 2002-10-13 02:06, Fipke wrote:

There exists indeed a clear definition among linguists of what a native speaker is, and I\'m afraid I have to disagree with you, John:

Native and mother tongue IS indeed the same thing.



Native means \"born\", or if you prefer, \"born into\". It is the language your family and playmates are talking to you when you were a kid. That\'s about it.



From a widely accepted scientific point of view, humans are capable of learning ONLY ONE language RIGHT in their life. And this happens very very early (between the second and the sixth year of a kid\'s life).

And it depends solely on the individual, if he/she is able to acquire a second language as good as his/her first one. This most frequently happens in families where parents derive from different cultures, or where the awful refugee thing happens to a little child.

...

All these communication forms that cannot be expressed (or seen) in a text can only be sensed by a real native speaker who GREW UP with them.



This is also the main reason why moving to another country to learn the language as a grown-up will never work. You will always miss the natural way of a kid that sucks up its environment just by being there. This just happens, and it happens only once in everybody\'s life: between 2 and 6. The brain is like a harddisc that cannot be re-formatted. Once the boot sector is defined it stays that way. Anything that comes later is \"just\" learned to a certain degree. Some of us are quite good at that, other not. And it is in no way owing to them, it\'s just a matter of genes.





Hi Herbert,



Your theory sounds persuasive, but your scientists are simply wrong. As a trained scientist (and with a fair grounding in the philosophy of science), I only trust theories if bolstered by empirical facts. And in this case, I can disprove your theory with one clear empirical counter-example.



(I sent to Herbet a detailed description of this counter-example, but won\'t bore the rest of you with it. Suffice it to say that this person moved to another country as an adult, and became a native speaker of that country\'s language even though neither of his parents spoke it - therefore it was not this person\'s mother-tongue).
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Sheila Hardie
Sheila Hardie  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:58
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
I agree with Lesley Oct 14, 2002

I agree with Lesley



I quote:



\"I do not consider my French is of a good enough standard for publication - and I have been \'immersed\' in French for 13 years! I do occasionally translate letters into French but I always have them proofread by a French native. Although I think in French (though not all the time), my English phraseology still tends to slip in. It also takes me far too long.



So my personal opinion is: \'Yes\' for info
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I agree with Lesley



I quote:



\"I do not consider my French is of a good enough standard for publication - and I have been \'immersed\' in French for 13 years! I do occasionally translate letters into French but I always have them proofread by a French native. Although I think in French (though not all the time), my English phraseology still tends to slip in. It also takes me far too long.



So my personal opinion is: \'Yes\' for information; \'No\' for publication\".



I have been immersed in Catalan for 12 years and Spanish for 15 and often think and dream in both languages - I also thought and dreamt in French when I lived there, but I would never translate into these languages for official purposes. I can communicate (in writing or verbally) in all three perfectly fluently, but would never be sure enough of the quality of the end product to dare to translate INTO them. Like Lesley, I\'d say I use them \'for information but not for publication\'.





There is an interesting situation in Catalonia, where Catalan and Spanish co-exist. Many of my friends who went to school during Franco\'s time speak both languages perfectly but prefer to write in Spanish. Not all, but most of them. The simple reason is that, whilst they might have spoken Catalan at home, the great majority were taught in Spanish. I\'ve seen people who normally speak Catalan with me switch to Spanish when they are counting. Does that mean they are not native speakers of Catalan? I don\'t think so, it\'s simply that they learnt the multiplication tables in Spanish at school. Similarly, I always switch into English when I have to engage in any mental arithmetic tasks more complicated than 1+2 = 3! My brain can\'t cope with the added strain of a non-native language





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-14 19:01 ]

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-14 21:52 ]
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Ann Bishop (X)
Ann Bishop (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:58
Dutch to English
+ ...
The Language Realm Oct 14, 2002

Hi everyone,

this seems to be a very hot topic...

I would like to add the following, taken from the website http://home.earthlink.net/~rbchriss/index.html



---

There are two fundamental rules in the translation profession. Most successful translators seem to follow both, though some successful translators follow neither.



Rule Number On
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Hi everyone,

this seems to be a very hot topic...

I would like to add the following, taken from the website http://home.earthlink.net/~rbchriss/index.html



---

There are two fundamental rules in the translation profession. Most successful translators seem to follow both, though some successful translators follow neither.



Rule Number One: Work in the country of your B language.



Rule Number Two: Marry a native speaker of your B language.



---

I guess that qualifies me as a successful translator (I am married to an American native speaker AND living in my \"B country\")



My mother tongue is Dutch but I do translate into English.

One rule: I only accept jobs when I know my husband can edit my translations(he is a professional editor). If he is out of town on business, I will NOT accept the job!



If you translate into English, you definitely need to have lived (or live)in an English-speaking country (not just for 1 month) and you should constantly keep up with what is happening in your native country. And read anything you can get your hands on in both languages.



Another thing that is important is not to accept any jobs in fields you know nothing about. That is very unprofessional and is asking for trouble.



Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts.



PS: I dream in English and Dutch, and boy, sometimes it gets really confusing...

PS: I am also fluent in German and French but would never translate into (or out of) these languages, I am simply not qualified to do that.



--Ann







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lagunali
lagunali
Local time: 04:58
Turkish to English
+ ...
The Language Realm Oct 15, 2002

Excellent point Ann

 
Emma Cox
Emma Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:58
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Ann! Oct 15, 2002

Great point...



someone find me an eligible Brazilian...





 
Magda Dziadosz
Magda Dziadosz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 11:58
Member (2004)
English to Polish
+ ...
Stereotypes Oct 15, 2002

The issue of translating – or not, into one’s second language seems to be a number one discussion topic these days. I also follow an on-going discussion on one of the mailing lists and frankly speaking I am sick of such statements as: “I don’t translate into my B language so anyone who does it must be unprofessional”. Narrowing down the discussion into B language being English and A (native or mother tongue) being one of the rare languages (Eastern European or Russian, for example) for... See more
The issue of translating – or not, into one’s second language seems to be a number one discussion topic these days. I also follow an on-going discussion on one of the mailing lists and frankly speaking I am sick of such statements as: “I don’t translate into my B language so anyone who does it must be unprofessional”. Narrowing down the discussion into B language being English and A (native or mother tongue) being one of the rare languages (Eastern European or Russian, for example) for a translator living and working in his/her native country and the opposite for English native speakers living in their native countries, you all seem to disregard obvious differences between us and fall into stereotypes about Eastern countries.



First, most, if not all, English translators in Eastern Europe have started learning English at the age of 6 or 8 and continue their studies through University and further. So, a translator, University graduate with 10 – 15 years of professional experience would have studied his/her B language for 25-30 years. This is not a case for an English native speaker who has started studies of Slavonic languages at an adult age.



Second, you seem to fail to distinguish between young graduates of English studies with little experience in translation and those who have spent last 10 or 15 years working (in-house or free lance) for large international companies, law firms, auditors, etc. who operate in East European countries. Now, the latter group has a clear advantage over those (quoted): “ excellent xxx-to-English translators whose mother tongue is English” who simply do not have this tremendous opportunity to practice every day their second language not only in native speakers environment, but with professionals of a given area of translator’s specialisation from both countries and at the same time living in their A language country. And all these factors make some of us capable to deliver some specialised texts into our B language. And the translation of, say, an audit report or an act of law by someone who has assisted the actual audit or drafting the law by mixed team of professionals is better than that by someone sitting thousands kilometres away from the site and learning from books.



Of course, I accept that everyone has to know his/her limits. Stick to the area you really have adequate knowledge. Duly proof-read and review. Get your spouse from the appropriate language zone . Study, study and study.



But please, do not fall into the trap of stereotypes.



Magda



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-15 23:04 ]
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Jerzy Czopik
Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:58
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Beeing no native speaker of one language must not mean not to be able to translate into this... Oct 15, 2002

particular language.



First of all I have to state, that English is not my active language and I do never translate into it, although I ocassionally translate from English. Please apologise if my English will not be the best, but I\'ll try to express my thoughts as good as I can.



I was born in Poland and have left this country long time ago as an adult. Now I live in Germany. But German is not my mother tongue. Since I have studied in Poland and in German
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particular language.



First of all I have to state, that English is not my active language and I do never translate into it, although I ocassionally translate from English. Please apologise if my English will not be the best, but I\'ll try to express my thoughts as good as I can.



I was born in Poland and have left this country long time ago as an adult. Now I live in Germany. But German is not my mother tongue. Since I have studied in Poland and in Germany and live here since over 16 years and because I\'m working with languages, I dare to say my German skills are nearly native, so my working language pairs are: German into Polish AND Polish into German. Allthough many of you stated - here and in many mailing lists -, that you do not translate out of your mother tongue and everybody doing so is not a professional, I dare to object this. Even native speakers make mistakes, then there is no one who doesn\'t make any mistake. Only doing nothing you can be sure not to make any mistake. But in my opinion, doing nothing ist the biggest mistake you can make in your life.

Many customers of us ask me to translate into German for them, and I have never heard, that this translations are worser then such made by native speakers. The reason is quite simple - the experience.

On the other hand, I have read many translations into Polish made by native speakers of this language and full of errors, because they were not able to understand the german language.

IMHO translating from one into an other language NOT NECESSARILY NEEDS TO include your mother tongue - what really matters, are your skills in both languages and your capability to learn. For example someone familiar with IT terminology would be able to provide better English to German translation even if neither English nor German is his mother tongue as someone with German as mother tongue but without any knowledge in IT. This second person may be a very good translator for law or business, but not in this specific field.



Jerzy

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-10-15 21:57 ]
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Sandra_MT
Sandra_MT
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Emma, I'll introduce you to some Brazilians :) Oct 17, 2002

Hey, Emma, I\'m spending a month in Brazil next January. Should I bring your resume with me? LOL

 
Emma Cox
Emma Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:58
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
;-) Oct 18, 2002

he he... didn\'t mean to turn my discussion into an internet dating forum





 
Emma Cox
Emma Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:58
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
;-) Oct 18, 2002

he he... didn\'t mean to turn my discussion into an internet dating forum





 
Ulrich Garn
Ulrich Garn  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:58
English to German
+ ...
You must be joking, Ann and Magda Oct 20, 2002

\"Rule Number Two: Marry a native speaker of your B language.\"



\"Get your spouse from the appropriate language zone.\"



Where did you get this \"rule\" from? You mean translators should choose their spouses for practical purposes? That\'s a joke, is it? It\'s a little difficult to grasp, since \"Rule Number One\" makes sense, at least to a certain extend. I am really confused.



 
PAS
PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:58
Polish to English
+ ...
More dissent Oct 22, 2002

(but at least the discussion is nicer now).



Who is native, who is not?



You can also tell by listening. My father (white caucasian male living in Toronto) once coined the phrase \"audible minority\".





Pawel Skalinski


 
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