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Fake "translators" on Proz - report them?
Thread poster: Inez Ulrich
Inna Borymova
Inna Borymova  Identity Verified
Kyrgyzstan
Member (2013)
English to Russian
+ ...
A great way to revenge both :) Jun 5, 2020

Matthias Brombach wrote:

Inez Ulrich wrote: Would you report them to Proz?


... to bottom feeders or agencies, who you refuse to work for any longer for certain reasons and who suddenly are in need and ask you to recommend them a colleague.


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:12
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
... Jun 5, 2020

Chris S wrote:
Because someone else will, and they might not get it right.

They might not. This too comes under "don't take on work you can't do", such as attempting to respond to questions when you're not certain of the answer.

Because every question asked on KudoZ could be taken as a sign of the translator’s incompetence.

As I myself point out, I have no beef with those who use it sparsely and wisely.

Because of the points, if you rely on ProZ for work.

Working with a fundamentally flawed system to get points isn't my way, thanks.

Out of human kindness.

Sure, until people start abusing that kindness. I didn't start participating in Kudoz because I wanted to boost my points, but because I wanted to help in those areas where I could. Then I realised that certain people in my pair were gaming the system by jumping over every questions that came along in minutes, even those not worthy of a response. Those people were very good at researching terms and posting them on Kudoz. Are they good at translation? Possibly. I don't know. They're clearly not doing it out of kindness alone.

What have you got to lose? They’re no threat to you and at least they’re asking rather than just botching.

Their choices are not limited to asking or botching. They also have the choice of not taking on work they can't do in the first place, just like I don't take on, say, pharma texts because I don't want to bugger them up.

In a more general sense, there's plenty to lose. In the wider scheme of things, society makes progress when it rewards individuals for productive and positive behaviour, rather than when it incentivises unproductive or destructive behaviour.

A banal example of the latter would be incentivising a person to take on a task which is beyond their ability to perform properly. At best it's dubious, leading to poor quality and wasted resources. At worst it's unethical, leading to loss of life or limb.

Because every mistranslation is a tiny setback for humankind.

You think we should avoid setbacks? It is only through feedback (positive and negative) that we find our way to the correct answers. In this case the correct answer is "Hire the right person for the job". Failure is a part of every human endeavour. If the client doesn't learn that they have failed to hire the wrong person, how will anything change? The answer is not to ban failure.

My compromise is only to ignore people who really take the piss with millions of questions.

When I last looked at Kudoz a few years ago, such people seemed to be asking the majority of the questions in my pair. Maybe things have changed.

Dan


Christopher Schröder
Michele Fauble
Zibow Retailleau
 
Angie Garbarino
Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:12
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
This was true until some year ago Jun 5, 2020

Inna Borymova wrote:


It seems to me I've seen somewhere that it's impossible to leave poor feedback for a translator - only positive or nothing, at least several years ago. I've seen translators with good WWA whose work was very poor - from not understanding the text to very bad grammar skills. So once I was so furious after having to rewrite the translation almost from scratch instead of proofreading that I was eager to write what I think on the person's profile page. No chance... I reported to the agency, they promised to take actions and still no result - that translator worked till the end of the project. Maybe the matter is cheap rates. One of the agencies I worked with found a new translator to the big ongoing project (one of those who daily asks 10+ KudoZ questions) and asked to approve him. The translation was really poor with numerous stupid mistakes. Several colleagues and I rejected providing the explanations (not simply "we do not like that"). And? The agency approved the guy, then asked for lower rates and the result is that I am not working with them anymore and the guy continues to produce bullshit.


Now it is possible, I have recently seen a 1 given to a colleague by an outosourcer agency,


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
"P" tag? Jun 5, 2020

Inez Ulrich wrote:
Would you report them to Proz?

If the person is claiming to translate in a pair where they've been awarded the "P" tag of a member of the Certified Pro Network, and they're quite unable to do so professionally, I'd report them. Failings of the certification system should be reported, IMO. But there's no point otherwise.

If you've paid them to do work, then you've learnt something about choosing your suppliers .


Tina Vonhof (X)
Angie Garbarino
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Gerard de Noord
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Philip Lees
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to Russian
+ ...
This is exactly why Jun 5, 2020

Tests are crucial. Self-advertisement should never be enough. Degrees should never be enough. Without tests, only fat portfolios and relevant samples, as impressive as some Proz members can provide within 15 minutes upon request, may serve as a guarantee. For the purpose of this post, I am not authorized to name any names even in the most praising way but everyone here can guess at least a few. Too bad those guys and gals want a lot of money (sarcasm).

As I've said gazillion times
... See more
Tests are crucial. Self-advertisement should never be enough. Degrees should never be enough. Without tests, only fat portfolios and relevant samples, as impressive as some Proz members can provide within 15 minutes upon request, may serve as a guarantee. For the purpose of this post, I am not authorized to name any names even in the most praising way but everyone here can guess at least a few. Too bad those guys and gals want a lot of money (sarcasm).

As I've said gazillion times already, maybe 1 out of 100+ offered tests is worth doing but this is how both parties find good partners.

It is the translator's responsibility to switch the brain ON before rushing into mass mail tests, and it is the outsourcer's responsibility to pick the right person. To do so, some logical steps and thinking are required.
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marijaflora
 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Fake native English speakers can be found in all language pairs Jun 5, 2020

Baran Keki wrote:

I don't know about fake translators, but I know plenty of fake native English speakers in my language pair. Personally I'm sick of seeing those gray N signs on the profiles of people who give every indication that they've never set foot outside Turkey in their lives. I wonder if that's the case with people in other language pairs.


In one of my pairs, nearly everyone (not all) either claims native English as their only language or manages to admit they are also natives of the language they were born into, grew up and were educated in.
My other two pairs also have no shortage of fake native English speakers. The trouble is that being able to speak a language does not automatically mean one can write in it. And as simple as it is to speak English, like all other languages, written English is a whole different matter/a whole new ball game.


Sheila Wilson
Gerard de Noord
Tom in London
Thayenga
Michele Fauble
Barbara Carrara
Philip Lees
 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 20:12
Bosnian to English
+ ...
proofreading Jun 5, 2020

Would you know for certain that they are not native speakers of their languages?
For example, I am a native speaker of English. I interact with English speakers every day, and I can tell you that there are many native English speakers that would not be suitable for proofreading jobs.
It is quite common to see errors in punctuation in emails from native English speakers. This even refers to highly educated people on "ridiculously high incomes" in corporate settings.

[Edited at
... See more
Would you know for certain that they are not native speakers of their languages?
For example, I am a native speaker of English. I interact with English speakers every day, and I can tell you that there are many native English speakers that would not be suitable for proofreading jobs.
It is quite common to see errors in punctuation in emails from native English speakers. This even refers to highly educated people on "ridiculously high incomes" in corporate settings.

[Edited at 2020-06-05 14:48 GMT]

[Edited at 2020-06-05 14:48 GMT]

[Edited at 2020-06-05 14:51 GMT]
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Tom in London
Christopher Schröder
Josephine Cassar
Philip Lees
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
 
Elena Feriani
Elena Feriani
Italy
Local time: 10:12
Member
French to Italian
+ ...
that lady Jun 5, 2020

[quote]Samuel Murray wrote:

That lady wearing the red hairband on her wrist will then respond to your report.


[Edited at 2020-06-05 09:35 GMT]



LOL!


Gerard de Noord
Tom in London
 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
No, because it does no good Jun 5, 2020

On 26 March, I questioned a quasi-illiterate somebody who was obviously not a translator from the word go:


https://www.proz.com/forum/spanish/342428-¿que_cobrar_por_la_traducción_de_un_libro.html


One of my comments was outed, a site rule was quoted (Mutual respect, professionalism and fair play are expect
... See more
On 26 March, I questioned a quasi-illiterate somebody who was obviously not a translator from the word go:


https://www.proz.com/forum/spanish/342428-¿que_cobrar_por_la_traducción_de_un_libro.html


One of my comments was outed, a site rule was quoted (Mutual respect, professionalism and fair play are expected) - get that irony - and the oaf concerned was allowed to laugh at all of us. Get the message? Anything goes. Someone who pops in on spec is more important.
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expressisverbis
Tom in London
Christopher Schröder
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Barbara Carrara
writeaway
P.L.F. Persio
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Translator = not just native speaker; but proficient writer too Jun 5, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:
It is quite common to see errors in punctuation in emails from native English speakers. This even refers to highly educated people on "ridiculously high incomes" in corporate settings.

Non-native errors are different from those made by a native speaker of the language who doesn't have the writing level required of a professional translator. Both can produce texts that are just a little off or a total mess, depending on the person's ability -- but the errors won't be similar.

Certainly, being an educated native speaker doesn't guarantee a high level of written expression. This is why many corporate leaders call on the services of professional writers and editors. And why it's so ill-advised for some world leaders to issue statements, often in the middle of the night, that haven't been vetted by anyone !!!


Mervyn Henderson (X)
marijaflora
Christopher Schröder
Paul Malone
Michele Fauble
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Philip Lees
 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 10:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
@Sheila Jun 5, 2020

I wish I could put "Agree" a few times over on that one. I tried to "Un-Agree" (horrible word, like "Uninstall", but I understand it can't be "Disagree") and "Agree" successively a few times, hoping I could notch up a few net "Agree"s, but no.

I wonder which world leader/s you mean? Oh yes, I get it, it's donned on me [sick].

[Edited at 2020-06-05 16:55 GMT]


marijaflora
Christopher Schröder
P.L.F. Persio
 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 20:12
Bosnian to English
+ ...
different perspective Jun 5, 2020

Dan Lucas wrote:

Tom in London wrote:
There seems to be no way of getting rid of these cheats and charlatans. The only thing one can do is: never help them with their Kudoz questions.

I disengaged from Kudoz because in my pair I was seeing unqualified translators asking basic questions, day after day, on the same subject. As far as I could see they were just going through their project and popping up on Kudoz whenever they bumped into something difficult.

It's one thing to help out a fellow professional struggling with a knotty problem, somebody who may ask one question every few months. It's another thing entirely to help somebody who is misusing Kudoz by using it to cover for their lack of competence to do the job. Why should I put bread in the mouth of such competitors?

Previously I have argued for a restriction to combat this, such as limiting users to two questions a month. Nothing has changed.

Regards,
Dan


But can it also be looked at in a different way?
I.e., some translators may never have had the opportunity to undertake University degrees in Translation/Linguistics due to a lack of financial resources or a lack of opportunity, so asking questions from other translators on Proz can be a form of education. Is it any different from Uni students asking their teachers questions?
We are all students and beginners at some point of our careers.......

[Edited at 2020-06-05 17:22 GMT]


Oleksandr Ivanov
 
marijaflora
marijaflora
Australia
Local time: 20:12
Bosnian to English
+ ...
differences Jun 5, 2020

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Marijaflora wrote:
It is quite common to see errors in punctuation in emails from native English speakers. This even refers to highly educated people on "ridiculously high incomes" in corporate settings.

Non-native errors are different from those made by a native speaker of the language who doesn't have the writing level required of a professional translator. Both can produce texts that are just a little off or a total mess, depending on the person's ability -- but the errors won't be similar.

Certainly, being an educated native speaker doesn't guarantee a high level of written expression. This is why many corporate leaders call on the services of professional writers and editors. And why it's so ill-advised for some world leaders to issue statements, often in the middle of the night, that haven't been vetted by anyone !!!


If you don't mind the question, in which way would the errors be different from non-native speakers vs native speakers who don't have the writing level of professional translators?
For example; do you mean things such as leaving words like "the" out in translations because the article "the" doesn't exist in some other languages?



[Edited at 2020-06-05 17:48 GMT]


 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 04:12
English to Russian
+ ...
Huge difference Jun 5, 2020

Marijaflora wrote:


Is it any different from Uni students asking their teachers questions?
We are all students and beginners at some point of our careers.......

[Edited at 2020-06-05 17:22 GMT]


Mariajaflora,

This is the site for professional translators who make a living by translation, compete on the market and must feed their families. We are not salaried college professors paid to do nothing else but cultivate a new generation of translators. We are very busy people. Quite a few of us have started when no such sites existed, and not all of us have a specialized higher education. When it comes to a translation degree, I believe their owners may even be in the minority among older generations. Research, self-studies, practice, blood, sweat and tears brought us to the top or at least somewhat close to it.

In fact, best professionals here already spend a lot of time giving advises and helping with questions; no newbie will ever be turned down with a question or two but the oldtimers certainly feel abused by someone who believes that he/she has found a meal ticket that helps to snatch jobs for a fraction of a real price and drag the market down without extra efforts. Proz offers an abundance of wise practical advises, warnings, suggestions etc coming from wonderful professionals but Kudoz is the last, not the first resort. Mind it, even most helpful and kind-hearted people feel insulted when someone takes on a job without any clue about the subject matter and then demands dozens of answers with 5 pages of context, which does not help them to pick the right answer anyway. "The youngsters" often do not even bother to search through Proz fora and keep raising the same issues over and over again. Adults get irritated:-).

Please don't feel unwelcome, just understand that here you are out of a Uni sanctuary and in a real world of professionals and competitors. In this case, by "professionals" I mean those who are able to pay their bills and their kids' Unis solely by translation.


Sheila Wilson
JPMedicalTrans
P.L.F. Persio
Liviu-Lee Roth
Tanami
Fatine Echenique
Dan Lucas
 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:12
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
The issue of "nativeness" keeps coming up Jun 5, 2020

Whenever something poorly written is found, your immediate response would be that it is written by a non-native speaker. I believe you may need to give it a second thought if you do have such an immediate response.


[Edited at 2020-06-05 19:34 GMT]

[Edited at 2020-06-05 21:10 GMT]


 
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Fake "translators" on Proz - report them?







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