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Translator-proofreader relationship: Is anonymity the industry standard?
Thread poster: Lancashireman
Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:45
German to English
Teamwork Dec 20, 2018

One of my agency clients has assembled a team of translators who edit each other's work. We're all familiar with the regularly-occurring material, so there are few terminology-related discussions, apart from general queries regarding new terminology or usage. The system works relatively smoothly, and although I would hesitate to call the editing process "free money", it doesn't compare to the task of editing the work of a less competent stranger.

Liviu-Lee Roth
 
Matthias Brombach
Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:45
Member (2007)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Two years ago ... Dec 20, 2018

... it was a special pleasure for an earlier fellow student of mine and today freelancer "colleague" (one with a very high ranking in one of my language combinations here at proz, a bored military retiree, spending his freetime with KudoZ gaming and recommending his buddies) to cut my work into pieces for ridicolous reasons and to send the "revised" version back to the non-german agency with putting his name in fully as amendment into the file name. Simply because the agency (one of the mayfly o... See more
... it was a special pleasure for an earlier fellow student of mine and today freelancer "colleague" (one with a very high ranking in one of my language combinations here at proz, a bored military retiree, spending his freetime with KudoZ gaming and recommending his buddies) to cut my work into pieces for ridicolous reasons and to send the "revised" version back to the non-german agency with putting his name in fully as amendment into the file name. Simply because the agency (one of the mayfly outsourcers with hundreds of 5-point-BB-entries) obviously had no professional approach of anonymising the exchange between translator and reviewer. After my complaint they had reviewed my file again by another German, who had no concerns at all. Since then I always ask a prospect new agency client to anonymise my work before they send it out for proofing.Collapse


 
B D Finch
B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:45
French to English
+ ...
It depends Dec 20, 2018

In principle, I prefer a default mode of anonymity. It has happened that I've had a translation to proofread that was so bad that, after about 15 minutes, I stopped proofreading and told the client that it would be better and would take less time to re-translate from scratch. Obviously, I provided evidence and the agency (which did have the in-house linguistic and technical subject skills to make an informed judgement) agreed. In one of those cases, the translator had left their name in the docu... See more
In principle, I prefer a default mode of anonymity. It has happened that I've had a translation to proofread that was so bad that, after about 15 minutes, I stopped proofreading and told the client that it would be better and would take less time to re-translate from scratch. Obviously, I provided evidence and the agency (which did have the in-house linguistic and technical subject skills to make an informed judgement) agreed. In one of those cases, the translator had left their name in the document properties. Out of curiosity, I looked at their website and was amazed to see that the qualifications and experience they claimed to have seemed totally incompatable with the abysmal quality of their translation. In fact, the only explanation I could think of was that they were lying about their qualifications and experience. In a situation like that, where the translator will, inevitably, be dropped by the agency, I certainly would prefer not to be identified to them. However, it also works the other way around, and I felt somewhat uncomfortable that I had given in to curiosity and knew the identity of the translator, even though I kept that knowledge strictly confidential.

It has also happened to me that an agency has had my technical translation proofread by someone who clearly had no technical knowledge and made some ridiculous "corrections", and I had to spend far too much time proving that they were wrong. Again, in that situation, I'd rather not know the identity of the proofreader. If the agency can deal with the situation in a satisfactory way, fine; if not, then I'd rather not work for them.
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Helen Shiner
conejo
Josephine Cassar
 
A. & S. Witte
A. & S. Witte
Germany
Local time: 21:45
German to English
+ ...
The only time I remember ever having directly liaised/been put in touch with another linguist in Dec 21, 2018

my work out of maybe a total of three instances, concerning two of which I have no recollection, was very nice because that translator was super nice. However, the procedure was aided further by the fact that that person was also excellent at language services all round and a great translator.

Other than that, no, I would not really recommend putting linguists directly in touch with each other within the context of paid work with which they are both involved.


conejo
 
Gerard de Noord
Gerard de Noord  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:45
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Some relations are close, others aren't Dec 21, 2018

I work with my own personal proofreader, whom I'm married to, and most of the time with small outsourcers who treat me like a colleague. Those women are not anonymous. They point out weaknesses or errors in my translations without a qualm but they like living or working with me anyway.
Other outsourcers appreciate my work – they keep coming back – but, when I check the end result online, I can see that I’ve been edited. Mind you, sometimes the end result is better in Dutch, but I’m
... See more
I work with my own personal proofreader, whom I'm married to, and most of the time with small outsourcers who treat me like a colleague. Those women are not anonymous. They point out weaknesses or errors in my translations without a qualm but they like living or working with me anyway.
Other outsourcers appreciate my work – they keep coming back – but, when I check the end result online, I can see that I’ve been edited. Mind you, sometimes the end result is better in Dutch, but I’m a translator, not a copywriter.

Twenty years ago, I worked with an agency with proofreaders who tried to teach me things. Those days have gone. Nowadays, no one will bother. You’re either ready for it, or not.

I know I haven’t answered your question, but I would avoid any situation in which you would be not anonymous when pointing out a mistake to a translator you do not know.

My personal view is that no one should hire a translator who makes mistakes.

Cheers,
Gerard
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Josephine Cassar
Liviu-Lee Roth
 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:45
French to English
I like to know who I'm working with Dec 22, 2018

As a long-time in-house translator/proofreader I was happy to know whose work I was proofreading. I have avoided further contact with bad translators, and have been delighted to be able to recommend the work of good translators. I often spoke with the good translators directly, to discuss challenging texts and their choices, and I think we all benefitted from that. Also, you do get a feel for their style and know who you can trust.

Kaspars Melkis
Christine Andersen
Susan Welsh
 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:45
Serbian to English
+ ...
It might seem obvious ... Dec 26, 2018

but I have seen too many examples where what would seem obvious (even to "non-professionals" / "outsiders"), was smugly ignored by people who are supposed to know what they are doing.

So far, not a word from anyone about what should definitely be a "standard" i.e. a compulsory element of any "proofreading" (especially if it's a kind of code-word for in fact editing/reviewing):

1 - make BOTH the Source Text and the translation available to the Proofreader (/ Editor / Rev
... See more
but I have seen too many examples where what would seem obvious (even to "non-professionals" / "outsiders"), was smugly ignored by people who are supposed to know what they are doing.

So far, not a word from anyone about what should definitely be a "standard" i.e. a compulsory element of any "proofreading" (especially if it's a kind of code-word for in fact editing/reviewing):

1 - make BOTH the Source Text and the translation available to the Proofreader (/ Editor / Reviewer)

2 - select a Proofreader (/ Editor / Reviewer) competent in BOTH languages AND in the subject matter.

THAT seems to me far far more important than agonising about anonymity or non-anonymity between the translator and the proofreader.

Proofreading is not any kind of "exam" for obtaining a good mark or a diploma or a degree, where the anonymity of the examiner really does matter, is necessary and important, and where you can reasonably expect that in 99.9 % of cases (1) the examiner knows ways far more about the subject matter than the examinee AND (2) has no personal stake in the exam's result. (In case you missed the allusion: in how many cases will that be true for a "proofreader" found and paid by an agency?)

Proofreading is supposed to be - should be - part of a process leading to a better quality of the "final product" - the translated text. Viewed that way, any "anonymity" of any participant in the process is pure nonsense, and the remedy of an "anonymous" participant communicating with other participants through some intermediary doesn't make much more sense - ever heard of "Chinese whispers / the telephone game"?

Now, if you introduce in the equation non-linguistic elements such as having to worry about "est-ce que son ego va subir un bobo", or being put in the position of having to point out to someone that they are a textbook example of the Dunning–Kruger effect, then a degree of separation / some form of anonymity might be desirable - BUT even then it would NOT be for the purpose of improving the translated text, but more to preserve someone's sanity. The "improving the translated text" part would have been achieved by keeping the said "expert translators" miles away from the ST in the first place, anonymity / non-anonymity notwithstanding.

Also "obvious" - the only time when anonymising or non-anonymising is of any relevance is when the work is cut into pieces and subcontracted in all directions - when you work in an established team, that's a non-question as everyone would recognise each other's work after the first sentence.

@ Lancashireman
One possible solution for your hesitations about being in direct contact with the translator: in principle it's far better to have a direct two way communication, no doubts about that, but if you feel more comfortable when there is some "degree of separation", nowadays you can easily obtain that by communicating only online without knowing each other details. Does this sound like a good compromise?
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Liviu-Lee Roth
 
Susan Welsh
Susan Welsh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:45
Russian to English
+ ...
As an editor, I prefer to be able to contact the translator Dec 29, 2018

I edit a lot of somewhat technical documents in various fields, translated into English by non-native-speakers of English, and I always ask for the contact info of the translator. I communicate with them when I have a question about terminology -- why they translated something the way they did, when I am not certain whether it is correct. I am the native English speaker, but sometimes (not always!) the translator is more skilled in the subject matter, not to mention the fact that they sometimes ... See more
I edit a lot of somewhat technical documents in various fields, translated into English by non-native-speakers of English, and I always ask for the contact info of the translator. I communicate with them when I have a question about terminology -- why they translated something the way they did, when I am not certain whether it is correct. I am the native English speaker, but sometimes (not always!) the translator is more skilled in the subject matter, not to mention the fact that they sometimes understand the source text (idioms, etc.) better than I do. I benefit a lot from such collaboration, and perhaps the translator does too.

I also keep a list of translators for this particular agency, noting if they are good, bad, or indifferent. Editing a bad translation, as we all know, results in a very poor per-hour income for the editor if you are being paid per word. Yuck.



[Edited at 2018-12-29 13:00 GMT]
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Liviu-Lee Roth
 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:45
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
My case Dec 29, 2018

It is the case nine times out of ten that I don't know who the translator was when I was assigned a proofreading job. I just used "Track Change" to indicate anything I changed, and none of the translators ever needed to come back to me to discuss any of my changes, either directly or via my agency clients.

In most cases, I don't know who has proofread my translation, either. In fact, no proofreaders have ever contacted me to discuss anything on my translations, either directly or v
... See more
It is the case nine times out of ten that I don't know who the translator was when I was assigned a proofreading job. I just used "Track Change" to indicate anything I changed, and none of the translators ever needed to come back to me to discuss any of my changes, either directly or via my agency clients.

In most cases, I don't know who has proofread my translation, either. In fact, no proofreaders have ever contacted me to discuss anything on my translations, either directly or via my agency clients. Some agency clients requested me to accept/reject the proofreaders' changes but I was still not informed who the proofreaders were.

[Edited at 2018-12-29 18:20 GMT]
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conejo
conejo  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 15:45
Japanese to English
+ ...
Keeping translators and editors apart is standard practice as far as I know Jan 1, 2019

I've been translating and editing for years, and I have never seen a situation where the client did not try really hard to keep the translator and editor from knowing who the other person is. There has never been even one instance when I was allowed to know who the other person was.

Which is better... well if the translator's work is full of errors and if you have to get the translator's cooperation to fix the errors, knowing who they are is bad, because it puts a whole level of pro
... See more
I've been translating and editing for years, and I have never seen a situation where the client did not try really hard to keep the translator and editor from knowing who the other person is. There has never been even one instance when I was allowed to know who the other person was.

Which is better... well if the translator's work is full of errors and if you have to get the translator's cooperation to fix the errors, knowing who they are is bad, because it puts a whole level of problems between you and doing your job. I think it's probably better if you don't know, because convincing someone to fix their errors is not really your job. Your job is to edit the document, not have to convince someone.

And as others have said, if the document is full of an unacceptable number of errors, the client needs to know that clearly, without you having to sugar-coat it because the translator is in contact with you.

I think it's better if it's anonymous both ways.

[Edited at 2019-01-01 01:01 GMT]
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Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 21:45
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
The real problem is when you assume the translation is full of errors... Jan 1, 2019

I have actually told a couple of hopefuls (not to their faces, but by e-mail) that no one ever gets rich as a translator, and if they want to make a living at all, they must improve considerably or find a different job.

I sugared the pill by telling one that it sounded as if his German was excellent, so he should concentrate on that, at least until his understanding of one Scandinavian language was far better, and in any case to keep to English as his target language...

... See more
I have actually told a couple of hopefuls (not to their faces, but by e-mail) that no one ever gets rich as a translator, and if they want to make a living at all, they must improve considerably or find a different job.

I sugared the pill by telling one that it sounded as if his German was excellent, so he should concentrate on that, at least until his understanding of one Scandinavian language was far better, and in any case to keep to English as his target language...

I think others told him roughly the same, and he had moved from Norway to Germany when I last heard of him.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind! And if neither knows who the other is, then translators who are not up to professional standards, for whatever reason, will go on assuming they know best. (OK, even if they do know who you are, they may think their credentials are better than yours.)

If my work is reviewed by a respected colleague, I consider their advice carefully and probably accept it. If I don't know who the reviewer is, and I disagree with any alterations, I am far more likely to hit the 'Reject all changes' button and send a furious mail to the client telling them how I checked everything first time round…

And as I said earlier, this forum is full of complaints about idiotic 'proofreaders' who have no idea what they are doing.

If I can't find any errors - and even if I can - I comment on some good points in the translation too, and THAT softens the blow of any criticism like magic. It also shows that you HAVE read and considered the text, so you deserve to be paid for it

Happy New Year everyone!


[Edited at 2019-01-01 15:19 GMT]
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Michele Fauble
 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 16:45
Romanian to English
+ ...
quite the opposite Jan 3, 2019

conejo wrote:

I've been translating and editing for years, and I have never seen a situation where the client did not try really hard to keep the translator and editor from knowing who the other person is. There has never been even one instance when I was allowed to know who the other person was.

Which is better... well if the translator's work is full of errors and if you have to get the translator's cooperation to fix the errors, knowing who they are is bad, because it puts a whole level of problems between you and doing your job. I think it's probably better if you don't know, because convincing someone to fix their errors is not really your job. Your job is to edit the document, not have to convince someone.

And as others have said, if the document is full of an unacceptable number of errors, the client needs to know that clearly, without you having to sugar-coat it because the translator is in contact with you.

I think it's better if it's anonymous both ways.

[Edited at 2019-01-01 01:01 GMT]



For the last eight years I have been working with a colleague 2000 miles away on confidential translations requested by a federal agency in the US. Even more, when we receive the source text from the LSP that has a contract with the government, we split it, according to our specialty, and after we consult on Skype about the best terms to be used, we send each-other the translation for review. This procedure cuts in half the delivery time and in numerous instances we received messages from the gvt. to thank us for the speedy and high quality of the translation.

The LSP calls us ”The Dream Team” and they are fully aware that we work in tandem.

Therefore, nothing is written in stone and we must adapt to what works best for the client.


Christine Andersen
Daryo
 
forever_young
forever_young
New Zealand
Local time: 09:45
Korean to English
Whoops Nov 5, 2021

Came in thinking thread title said "Translator-proofreader relationship: Is ANIMOSITY the industry standard?"

Matthias Brombach
 
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