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A new feature for this contest: group commentary on the source text
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Not sure Oct 16, 2012

Sheila Wilson wrote:
... surely this commentary must be restricted to those of us who declare the language as our target language (or one of our target languages for those who have more than one), mustn't it?

I don't know. Interesting thought. There would be several ways to approach this, we may experiment.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Source text notes are sorted by "net agrees" Oct 16, 2012

Ali Bayraktar wrote:
The view order of the texts should be changed randomly.
For example on a hourly basis.

Picking a random order at the beginning and showing the same order during the whole contest is not fair.

If you are talking about the source text notes, they are sorted according to the number of "net agrees" (agrees minus disagrees).

If you are talking about entries (during the review period), yes, the order is randomized. In fact, a random order is generated for each person, and the same order is shown to that person each time they visit. (To avoid confusion.)


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Useful comments are rising to the top Oct 16, 2012

Ty Kendall wrote:

Nice idea but looking at the comments as they currently stand, I have to ask myself: do these comments help or hinder?

Some of the comments are just a bit "out there", others are downright wrong, bordering on the bizarre.

Weighing up the pros and cons, I think this feature could end up doing more harm than good.

You think? I'd say the comments that have risen to the top for each segment are useful comments to consider (even if one disagrees), and that the "out there" ones have been pretty effectively pushed down.

No?


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:42
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Sink or swim Oct 16, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Ty Kendall wrote:

Nice idea but looking at the comments as they currently stand, I have to ask myself: do these comments help or hinder?

Some of the comments are just a bit "out there", others are downright wrong, bordering on the bizarre.

Weighing up the pros and cons, I think this feature could end up doing more harm than good.

You think? I'd say the comments that have risen to the top for each segment are useful comments to consider (even if one disagrees), and that the "out there" ones have been pretty effectively pushed down.

No?


Aaaaaah, I didn't realise that would happen. I thought the shifting position of the entries was either random or a bug

Yes, that's better.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
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English to Afrikaans
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Comment length bug still annoying Oct 16, 2012

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The comment box says "255 characters remaining", however the number doesn't change as you type. When you submit it, if it's way too long, the comment simply won't "go". If it's a bit too long, the system will chop off the excess before publishing.


Actually, for me, the too-long comment seems to have posted, but as soon as I leave the segment and return to it, I see it truncated.


 
Sean McDonald
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Local time: 18:42
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Can you elaborate Oct 16, 2012

First I just wanted to say thank you for all the suggestions and feedback. It has been very helpful in updating the code, and I am continuing to do so.

In regards to:
Samuel Murray wrote:

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The comment box says "255 characters remaining", however the number doesn't change as you type. When you submit it, if it's way too long, the comment simply won't "go". If it's a bit too long, the system will chop off the excess before publishing.


Actually, for me, the too-long comment seems to have posted, but as soon as I leave the segment and return to it, I see it truncated.


I would like to say, there was a bug earlier in the day that would have kept the text remaining box from working correctly, and allow you to enter in too much text. As such comments may have been truncated (I am currently working on a way to allow you to fix those)

As far as for you specifically Samuel, can you send me (not posted here to give away what comment is yours) the exact (or as close as you can remember) text you tried to enter that was truncated? Also what browser you were using at the time, and any other factors you may find relevant.


 
Sheila Wilson
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Firefox is OK, AFAIK Oct 16, 2012

Samuel Murray wrote:

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The comment box says "255 characters remaining", however the number doesn't change as you type. When you submit it, if it's way too long, the comment simply won't "go". If it's a bit too long, the system will chop off the excess before publishing.


Actually, for me, the too-long comment seems to have posted, but as soon as I leave the segment and return to it, I see it truncated.

Just to say that I don't think the same problem exists with Firefox. It could be handled better, but in Firefox the wordcount counts down correctly and the text is truncated if you type in too long a message. At least it's clear there's a problem.

Edited to add a suggestion: While you're working on the coding, would it be possible to make it clear what entries you've already (dis)agreed with? If you actually hover over each one you find out whether or not you've already actioned them, but I'd like to be able to scan down quickly for any newly-input entries.

[Edited at 2012-10-16 23:13 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
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English to Afrikaans
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@Sean Oct 17, 2012

Sean McDonald wrote:
As far as for you specifically Samuel, can you send me (not posted here to give away what comment is yours)...


I don't care if people know which excellent comments are mine (even if some people accidentally click "Disagree" without realising it). The truncated comment is here. After I submitted it, I could see the whole comment, but when I returned to it later, it was truncated.


 
Alexander Onishko
Alexander Onishko  Identity Verified
Russian to English
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Maybe... Oct 17, 2012

Sean McDonald wrote:

Thank you very much for your suggestions. As per your suggestion I will be placing the number of comments next to each segment shortly.

As far as agreeing with your own comment, the ability to do so will be removed shortly. There was a small debate as to whether you should be able to or not, and it has been agreed that you should not be able to.

As it stands now, agreeing, and then disagreeing with a comment does not add one to both. Instead it changes your vote. This was done so that you could change your mind based on new information that might come in. However based on your suggestion I can see how this may be confusing, and will be updated to better illustrate this.

As far as the facilitating the discussion. The comments should not appear in time order, nor will they display as random. Instead they will be displaying in an order of how people are agreeing/disagreeing with them. This does not mean however, that comments with more agrees will necessarily be higher, as finding out an overwhelming amount of people disagree with a statement could be just as useful as those agreeing with a different one. This order should help eliminate conversation, and keep the comments focused on the matter at hand.

Thank you very much for the suggestions, and for participating in the contest.


In this case, if we started the comments phase, maybe it make sense to stop submissions in ***all*** pairs? Even in case the pair has 1 or 2 entries.

Otherwise, if some language has say 2 entries now, and then 1 more person submits, this person (who submitted after reading the comments!) will have unfair competitive advantage over those 2 who submitted on their own.

Thank you for reading my comment.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
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Good topic, Alexander Oct 17, 2012

Alexander Onishko wrote:
... if we started the comments phase, maybe it make sense to stop submissions in ***all*** pairs? Even in case the pair has 1 or 2 entries.

Otherwise, if some language has say 2 entries now, and then 1 more person submits, this person (who submitted after reading the comments!) will have unfair competitive advantage over those 2 who submitted on their own.

Thanks for sharing your opinion on this issue, Alexander. This is an issue I was hoping to get feedback on.

My thoughts:

- It's true that discussing comments changes the nature of the contest significantly, in pairs that have fewer than 3 entries and the submission period could be extended. In that there is assistance in the interpretation of the source, the emphasis shifts toward quality of writing. Not only is the competition different, then, I would say that it may also be less fun.

- On the other hand, as far as fairness goes, I would say it is still fair. One can edit one's entry as long as submission is allowed, so someone who submitted early can take the new information on board just as well as someone entering the contest subsequent to the start of source text commentary. (Assuming those who submitted are made aware of the new commentary.)

So should submission be suspended in all pairs? In effect, we are deciding between:

Option 1: Calling the contest off in those pairs with fewer than 3 entries (since a winner will not be designated in those pairs), and

Option 2: Continuing the competition, albeit with a different (perhaps less interesting) -- but still fair -- format.

Let me know what you think. I'm particularly interested in the opinions of those involved in competition in the pairs with few entries...


 
inactiveprofile
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On fairness Oct 17, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

- On the other hand, as far as fairness goes, I would say it is still fair. One can edit one's entry as long as submission is allowed, so someone who submitted early can take the new information on board just as well as someone entering the contest subsequent to the start of source text commentary. (Assuming those who submitted are made aware of the new commentary.)


Hi, Henry,

When I first read (not very attentively) about this new group commentary feature, I got very worked up because I thought everyone would be able to edit their entries. I let out a big relieved sigh when I read again and realised it would not be possible to edit entries in my language pair. I would have found that very unfair.

Supposing that single entrant had got every meaning absolutely spot-on and written the translation with flair in the first place, I wouldn't think it fair to him/her if other people came in late with a brilliant translation they hadn't been able to come up with on their own. Yes, in theory Person #1 could also go and edit his entry, but he might not need to. It might have been a perfect translation to start with, perhaps even identical to what Person #3 eventually entered, once aided by the group discussions.

I would prefer to have no chance of winning the competition for lack of entries than to compete with someone who used a helping hand.

I don't really have a dog in this fight because my language pair had a healthy 19 entries, but I'd say the comment phase should start only when the entry submission deadline has passed - for ALL languages. So I'd vote for option 1: calling the contest off in those pairs with fewer than three entries.

Cheers.


 
Samuel Murray
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On no chance of winning Oct 17, 2012

Camila Gough wrote:
I would prefer to have no chance of winning the competition for lack of entries than to compete with someone who used a helping hand.


Speaking as someone whose language combination is "small", I have the opposite view. I'd rather compete with someone who has had a helping hand than not be able to win the competition.


 
inactiveprofile
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Fair enough Oct 17, 2012

Samuel Murray wrote:

Speaking as someone whose language combination is "small", I have the opposite view. I'd rather compete with someone who has had a helping hand than not be able to win the competition.



I can see your point. I suppose it's easy for me to say when I know there will be a winner in my language pair. Maybe "small" combinations need more targeted marketing around the contest? I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't, say, enough Afrikaans to Portuguese translator around - but I'm surprised about English to Afrikaans!


 
inactiveprofile
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Having said that... Oct 17, 2012

... I am pretty astounded at the quality of the comments. It's great that there is a ranking system and yes, the most horrific contributions do get pushed down, but even so!

 
Sean McDonald
Sean McDonald  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:42
Spanish to English
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Some needed improvements Oct 17, 2012

I have just released some improvements to the system that I feel should help a lot. The list of improvements include:

1: Your own comments will be highlighted a pale yellow for you to be able to easily identify
2: Position of + and - has been moved for more emphasis
3: if you have agreed or disagreed with the comment, the corresponding + or - will be highlighted
4: You can now edit your own comments, hopefully allowing those to fix their comments that may have been
... See more
I have just released some improvements to the system that I feel should help a lot. The list of improvements include:

1: Your own comments will be highlighted a pale yellow for you to be able to easily identify
2: Position of + and - has been moved for more emphasis
3: if you have agreed or disagreed with the comment, the corresponding + or - will be highlighted
4: You can now edit your own comments, hopefully allowing those to fix their comments that may have been truncated (side note to Samuel, it looks like your post yesterday had occurred before I had fixed the bug)
5: If you have agreed or disagreed you will only be presented with the other option (in order to change your mind if you wish)

[Edit] I forgot one, you can now comment on the source text as a whole as well

I hope you find these improvements useful. There are a few more on the way, and I have sincerely appreciated all the feedback I have received thus far.
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