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Discussion: should ProZ.com enforce a bare minimum rate for translations?
Thread poster: BNN Medical Tr.
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 19:05
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
What would be the point? Sep 6, 2017

A couple of years ago, a bottom-end Proz "competing portal", let's call it TD, tried to improve its image as it had become known for 95% of the job posters offering 1 cent per word in varying currencies. They stipulated that no job offering less then EUR 4¢ on the word would be published, and so it was done.

The result was that as soon as translators sent their bids at 4¢/w, the bottom-feeding job poster started negotiating to lower that to 1¢ word.

The translation m
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A couple of years ago, a bottom-end Proz "competing portal", let's call it TD, tried to improve its image as it had become known for 95% of the job posters offering 1 cent per word in varying currencies. They stipulated that no job offering less then EUR 4¢ on the word would be published, and so it was done.

The result was that as soon as translators sent their bids at 4¢/w, the bottom-feeding job poster started negotiating to lower that to 1¢ word.

The translation market is upside down, as buyers have been gradually empowered to impose their prices by bilinguals or sesquilinguals posing as translators worldwide, who are willing to work for ANY money, no matter how far in the future it will be possibly paid, if so.

Truly professional translators stand aloof, sticking to the rates they know their job is worth, however they see a considerable volume of work being assigned by bottom-feeders to amateurs.

IMHO what Proz could do to improve the translation market would be to STRICTLY FORBID job posters to specify, or make any innuendo (e.g. "generous pay"), on the rates offered. As such posts are vetted by moderators, this should be easy. Translators would then bid, and job posters would have a TRUE view of the actual translation marketplace, not what they'd like it to be.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
Member (2008)
Italian to English
No. Sep 6, 2017

Question: should proZ enforce a bare minimum rate for translations?
Answer: no, because it couldn't. Proz operates all over the world in all language pairs and all economies. That being the case, Proz could neither establish, monitor, nor enforce a bare minimum rate.

[Edited at 2017-09-06 11:54 GMT]


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:05
Member
English to Italian
Agree Sep 6, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

The translation market is upside down, as buyers have been gradually empowered to impose their prices by bilinguals or sesquilinguals posing as translators worldwide, who are willing to work for ANY money, no matter how far in the future it will be possibly paid, if so.

Truly professional translators stand aloof, sticking to the rates they know their job is worth, however they see a considerable volume of work being assigned by bottom-feeders to amateurs.

IMHO what Proz could do to improve the translation market would be to STRICTLY FORBID job posters to specify, or make any innuendo (e.g. "generous pay"), on the rates offered. As such posts are vetted by moderators, this should be easy. Translators would then bid, and job posters would have a TRUE view of the actual translation marketplace, not what they'd like it to be.


I agree with the above. However, an easy objection to that is what Lincoln wrote about wasting time "bidding" on jobs posted by bottom feeders...

IMHO, what ProZ could do is really (i.e. not just on paper) screen both translators AND outsourcers, but we both know that will never happen, as it would severely impact their revenue, while they're going the opposite way. In the end they're a commercial company, not a translators' association or an academic institution, although I believe a focus on quality rather than quantity, bells and whistles, would be sorely needed, even just for the sake of appearances and reputation, if not "for the profession"...


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 22:05
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
I have no idea Sep 6, 2017

Lingua 5B wrote:
Are ProZ membership fee and Trados license cheaper in the French part of Africa?

There are certain costs and investments in this business that prevent anyone from quoting under a certain rate, regardless of their location.

I really don't know about ProZ.com or Trados, but I do know that Wordfast is provided for a lower fee to those who are working in developing areas of the world (or at least it used to be).


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 06:05
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Job board Sep 7, 2017

One function the job board performs is that it provides an easier way for people who are not in a position to search the directory and figure things out, whether due to lack of experience, lack of time or whatnot, such as people who don't regularly shop for translations.

Also, with the job board, you're guaranteed a quick response, whereas it could take as much as a whole day, maybe more, to get a response from emailing a particular person. You also feel less obliged to reply to eve
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One function the job board performs is that it provides an easier way for people who are not in a position to search the directory and figure things out, whether due to lack of experience, lack of time or whatnot, such as people who don't regularly shop for translations.

Also, with the job board, you're guaranteed a quick response, whereas it could take as much as a whole day, maybe more, to get a response from emailing a particular person. You also feel less obliged to reply to every single offer such as when you send out a group email. Placing a newspaper ad and hiring a headhunter serves very different purposes.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 19:05
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
How to starve bottom feeders Sep 7, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

I agree with the above. However, an easy objection to that is what Lincoln wrote about wasting time "bidding" on jobs posted by bottom feeders...


The only reason why what we call "bottom feeders" exists in translation is that an agency can post a job on the Proz job board clearly stating "We pay USD 0.005 per word, 60 days after month-end" and get, say, 50 bids from sesquilingual desperados worldwide in a just a few hours.

If such translation pimps (calling them a translation agency is an insult to the real ones) are precluded from mentioning their despicable compensation policies, it's more likely that the lowest bid they'll get will be about USD 0.07/word payable in two weeks.

Then they'll have the option between either pimping less specialized services, or reengineering their business equation entirely.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
IMHO, what ProZ could do is really (i.e. not just on paper) screen both translators AND outsourcers, but we both know that will never happen, as it would severely impact their revenue, while they're going the opposite way. In the end they're a commercial company, not a translators' association or an academic institution, although I believe a focus on quality rather than quantity, bells and whistles, would be sorely needed, even just for the sake of appearances and reputation, if not "for the profession"...


Proz tried to screen - actually to "label" - translators with the PRO-tag, and outsourcers with the Blue Board, without committing itself.

However this creates a closed loop. The seasoned Prozian knows that a long Blue Board record with NO input from PRO-tag translators reveals low rates.


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
Member (2004)
English to Italian
I doubt... Sep 7, 2017

ProZ will stretch beyond what it's doing right now... some find not being able to declare the rate offered a "waste of time"... it might be, but the argument was that this way very low offers are not visible and are not considered the norm in our industry, because they are not... also, we set the rates...

 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:05
Member
English to Italian
Wheat, chaff, and all that... Sep 7, 2017

Lincoln Hui wrote:

One function the job board performs is that it provides an easier way for people who are not in a position to search the directory and figure things out, whether due to lack of experience, lack of time or whatnot, such as people who don't regularly shop for translations.


Easier? Faster? You post a job in X pairs and receive a gazillion offers, then what? You're still supposed to sift through all of them. That doesn't seem any faster, or easier, unless the only thing you look at is price. Besides, most of the ads I see are from "people who regularly DO shop for translations", primarily agencies or however people/companies with a BB record, who therefore should know quite well what they're looking for and how to look for it. Ticking a couple checkboxes, running a search and checking some profiles before sending a canned email to a few candidates would seem the smart way to go if your primary concern is finding the best candidate and not just the "best price", without considering that the more experienced (and supposedly capable) translators are exactly those who are less attracted by this "bidding" system, which, given all of the above, seems kind of self-defeating...


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:05
Member
English to Italian
I would be OK with that Sep 7, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

I agree with the above. However, an easy objection to that is what Lincoln wrote about wasting time "bidding" on jobs posted by bottom feeders...


The only reason why what we call "bottom feeders" exists in translation is that an agency can post a job on the Proz job board clearly stating "We pay USD 0.005 per word, 60 days after month-end" and get, say, 50 bids from sesquilingual desperados worldwide in a just a few hours.

If such translation pimps (calling them a translation agency is an insult to the real ones) are precluded from mentioning their despicable compensation policies, it's more likely that the lowest bid they'll get will be about USD 0.07/word payable in two weeks.

Then they'll have the option between either pimping less specialized services, or reengineering their business equation entirely.


Not so sure about the outcome you describe, mainly because the "sesquilingual desperados worldwide" you speak of would still be there, unabashed. Sure, not seeing those absurd rates would definitely help as an "educative" measure, but the poster would only need pick the lowest bidders and then tell them they can only pay 1/3 or 1/5 of the rates they mentioned...

Well, at the very least, it would make their exploitation endeavors a little harder and, as I wrote in the subject, I would be OK with that (and I don't really bid that much anyway).


Mirko Mainardi wrote:
IMHO, what ProZ could do is really (i.e. not just on paper) screen both translators AND outsourcers, but we both know that will never happen, as it would severely impact their revenue, while they're going the opposite way. In the end they're a commercial company, not a translators' association or an academic institution, although I believe a focus on quality rather than quantity, bells and whistles, would be sorely needed, even just for the sake of appearances and reputation, if not "for the profession"...


Proz tried to screen - actually to "label" - translators with the PRO-tag, and outsourcers with the Blue Board, without committing itself.


Exactly, that's why I wrote "on paper". I've seen "P translators" "certified" in EN>XX and XX>EN write in (almost) broken English on the fora, and likewise, the BB says nothing about an outsourcer's "quality". We all know there are agencies who pay peanuts and/or have other questionable practices and still get swaths of 5s (and the new subcategories don't really seem to help, and they're just meant for the "super members" anyway...)

However this creates a closed loop. The seasoned Prozian knows that a long Blue Board record with NO input from PRO-tag translators reveals low rates.


IMHO you're giving too much credit to red P, José... A marketing tool, yes, but a quality and/or rates indicator?

Case in point, I was recently contacted by an agency, quoted my rates, and they got back to me offering almost 1/3 of that... I checked them on the BB and they have almost 100 entries, all 5s (almost 40 of which only in the last year), and 1/5 of those are red Ps.

Same goes for a VERY famous hotel booking platform. Go check their BB rating, and you'll see perfect scores by plenty of red Ps around the world (more than 1/3 of the total ratings), and only 3 non Ps giving low scores and mentioning the extremely low rates (I'm surprised that was allowed to stand, actually).

Rinse and repeat.


P.S. One more, because this takes the cake: I just remembered being offered (a few months ago) a flat €3.5 to translate small guides of varying length (300-500 words, so, about €0.007 to €0.01 per word...), which I refused saying that was one of the lowest rates I had ever seen proposed, even by the worst bottom feeders, let alone by a German end-client... (yes, you read that right).
Now I went back to check on the BB, and there it was, a single entry from a red P with a 5 and top ratings in every subcategory...


 
Angela Malik
Angela Malik  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:05
German to English
+ ...
@Lingua 5B re: Trados in different countries Sep 7, 2017

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Lingua 5B wrote:
Are ProZ membership fee and Trados license cheaper in the French part of Africa?

There are certain costs and investments in this business that prevent anyone from quoting under a certain rate, regardless of their location.

I really don't know about ProZ.com or Trados, but I do know that Wordfast is provided for a lower fee to those who are working in developing areas of the world (or at least it used to be).


Yes, Trados also sells at different rates for different localities. The US price is cheaper than the UK price, for example (or it was the last time I was looking at those prices). Like any good company, they adjust their pricing to suit the market in question.

Sheila's point still stands: there is a massive difference between the cost of living in Switzerland and the cost of living in certain parts of Africa, and a difference between the investment a PhD with loads of experience has put into their career and the investment a far less educated, less experienced individual has put into theirs. And since a minimum rate could not be applied fairly, it would mean that the individual who happens to live in a more expensive region essentially gets punished for that, or the person who invested so much more time, effort and money into their qualifications and experience loses out terribly in favour of a far less qualified individual.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 19:05
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
A few things might change Sep 7, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

The only reason why what we call "bottom feeders" exists in translation is that an agency can post a job on the Proz job board clearly stating "We pay USD 0.005 per word, 60 days after month-end" and get, say, 50 bids from sesquilingual desperados worldwide in a just a few hours.


Not so sure about the outcome you describe, mainly because the "sesquilingual desperados worldwide" you speak of would still be there, unabashed. Sure, not seeing those absurd rates would definitely help as an "educative" measure, but the poster would only need pick the lowest bidders and then tell them they can only pay 1/3 or 1/5 of the rates they mentioned...


At least the desperados' standards wouldn't get promoted.

A newcomer to translation - either as a client or a provider - wouldn't come to Proz for the first time and get the impression that "normal" translation rates are in the US 1-3¢ range, and that the "normal" payment term in translation is 30-60 days after EOM.

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote and put a new emphasis:
Proz tried to screen - actually to "label" - translators with the PRO-tag, and outsourcers with the Blue Board, without committing itself.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Exactly, that's why I wrote "on paper". I've seen "P translators" "certified" in EN>XX and XX>EN write in (almost) broken English on the fora,

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote
However this creates a closed loop. The seasoned Prozian knows that a long Blue Board record with NO input from PRO-tag translators reveals low rates.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
IMHO you're giving too much credit to red P, José... A marketing tool, yes, but a quality and/or rates indicator?


I mean, giving some slack for the possible fallibility of the Red P, its absolute absence becomes an indicator.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
I checked them on the BB and they have almost 100 entries, all 5s (almost 40 of which only in the last year), and 1/5 of those are red Ps.


This is a private lesson that I hold to myself, not prescribing it to anyone, however from past experiences I handle outsourcers with over 100 BB entries with care. I found too many LWA-hunters among these, striving to build an attractive front, while their actual practices don't justify it. Some cases of covert blackmail (viz. "Gimme a 5 to get paid") explain it. Others, quite interestingly, when their average LWA drops below some supposedly preset level, receive a whole flock of new 5s in just one or two days!


 
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Discussion: should ProZ.com enforce a bare minimum rate for translations?






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