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Project History (plus feedback!) features updated. Members are invited to use it!
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Walter Landesman
Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 01:37
English to Spanish
+ ...
Good idea. Dec 11, 2005

Mihai Badea wrote:

Considering the potentially high risk of deceit, it may also be a good idea that only corroborated projects are shown for public view.


This is an interesting idea. It might help to calm down all those concerns about making up projects.

Walter


 
Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
PH vs ebay - why feedback is not as good here Dec 11, 2005

I know that feedback on ebay worked quite well. But our site is not just an auction site. Here there are confidentiality issues next to working relationships that can last for many years.

PH makers are aware of this, hence while the system on ebay is pretty straightforward, ProZ has to build rules and options much more complex.

Still I foresee negative comments sent by incompetent PMs, stolen clients, good comments sent as a personal favour, professional status changed
... See more
I know that feedback on ebay worked quite well. But our site is not just an auction site. Here there are confidentiality issues next to working relationships that can last for many years.

PH makers are aware of this, hence while the system on ebay is pretty straightforward, ProZ has to build rules and options much more complex.

Still I foresee negative comments sent by incompetent PMs, stolen clients, good comments sent as a personal favour, professional status changed by the simple request of public corroboration... The list of pitfalls could go on much longer. A

This issues go beyond the implementation, and invest the basic idea of a publicly corroborated PH on ProZ.
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Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
Corroboration is not so safe either Dec 11, 2005

Mihai Badea wrote:
Considering the potentially high risk of deceit, it may also be a good idea that only corroborated projects are shown for public view.


In my opinion made up corroborations will be virtually undetectable, while a false statement on CV can be very easily exposed.


 
Walter Landesman
Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 01:37
English to Spanish
+ ...
A mean question Dec 11, 2005

To those so concerned about made-up Projects in PH:

If one makes-up 20 projects to include them in his/her PH, what prevents him/her from doing the same with the CV? How can I be sure that the CV is for real? The outsourcer corroboration is a step forward in making things more reliable.

Walter


 
Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
why it is not a step forward Dec 11, 2005

Hi Walter,

Walter Landesman wrote:
The outsourcer corroboration is a step forward in making things more reliable


this is exactly my point: a made up corroboration is virtually impossible to expose. (Two people should be proven wrong - this could require a high court). On the contrary if I say I translated the user manual of the Titanic and I do not know how many propellers are there I look immediately suspicious.

Believe me - I know it because I have been a commissioning editor myself for a few years. And I can prove this with legal documents - but I could not have it corroborate, as my former employer company was sold and its office closed a few years ago.



[Edited at 2005-12-11 19:37]

[Edited at 2005-12-11 21:14]


 
Mihai Badea (X)
Mihai Badea (X)  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
English to Romanian
+ ...
About some of the concerns Dec 11, 2005

Walter Landesman wrote:

The outsourcer corroboration is a step forward in making things more reliable.



I agree. The outsourcer corroboration is certainly a step forward.

Luca Tutino wrote:

Still I foresee negative comments sent by incompetent PMs, stolen clients, good comments sent as a personal favour, professional status changed by the simple request of public corroboration... The list of pitfalls could go on much longer. A



The PH function was designed so that we can only receive feedback from outsourcers we know to be competent. We can choose the outsourcers from whom we want a feedback. If we are careful enough, we can avoid receiving feedback from incompetent PMs.

As to the possibility that other people steal our clients, I think the risk is quite low. From the discussions I had with some outsourcers, I know it is not so easy to find a professional translator for a certain translation as some may think. Starting a relationship with a new translator is always a bit risky. Generally speaking, if the outsourcer is happy with your service, he will come back to you, regardless of the number of new applications he receives (and he receives new applications anyway).

But, I think that, by making entries in Blue Board, many of us have already revealed the names of some of their clients. As far as I know, no cases of stolen clients have been reported so far. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Edited at 2005-12-11 20:16]


 
Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:37
Russian to English
+ ...
another person = less potential for deceit Dec 11, 2005

Luca Tutino wrote:
Is this really better than our usual CV claims?


Yes, because this involves another person.


On the other side it does not look so difficult to find a friend ready corroborate 7000 words made five years ago, without even checking if I really did it.


It depends on the sort of people one has as friends I still think it's an improvement although I do see your point.


Also, considering I have an average of 200+ (large and small) projects per year, it appears that the best PH figures will go to those that have the time and the patience to put each single project on his PH. If this happens, should I just start to rebuild my projects from 1988?


I fully agree and if you read this thread and the previous one you will see that I expressed these same concerns, which Henry later acknowledged.

[Edited at 2005-12-11 20:35]


 
Luca Tutino
Luca Tutino  Identity Verified
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
Corroboration Dec 11, 2005

Konstantin Kisin wrote:
I fully agree and if you read this thread and the previous one you will see that I expressed these same concerns, which Henry later acknowledged.

I just thought it might be usueful to corroborate them


 
Konstantin Kisin
Konstantin Kisin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:37
Russian to English
+ ...
LOL Dec 11, 2005

Luca Tutino wrote:

Konstantin Kisin wrote:
I fully agree and if you read this thread and the previous one you will see that I expressed these same concerns, which Henry later acknowledged.

I just thought it might be usueful to corroborate them


LOL, nice one


 
Fabio Descalzi
Fabio Descalzi  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 01:37
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
I am the person in question - please be more careful with what you write Dec 12, 2005

Luca Tutino wrote:

This is the core of PH - and I am afraid it is not a good idea. Please look at http://www.proz.com/pro/74269?show_mode=project_history&float=1&no_arrows=y (I do not know who's PH is this, and I am pretty sure this is a genuine PH of a excellent and enthusiast colleague: I just found it following a link in this discussion). There are 28 projects listed (into 8 languages and including some of 124, 623 or 1000 words). We know that they have been added in these days, but most of them are more than 1 year old, and some date back to 2001. One of these projects is corroborated: 7500 words from 2001.

Now, is this a proof? Is this really better than our usual CV claims? The only way to check them is to ask translators for proofs. A translator that does not promptly back up his CV statements will not find much work. On the other side it does not look so difficult to find a friend ready corroborate 7000 words made five years ago, without even checking if I really did it. Here we have a chance of building a kind of autocertification, which can be more deceiving than a false CV. This is my impression.

Also, considering I have an average of 200+ (large and small) projects per year, it appears that the best PH figures will go to those that have the time and the patience to put each single project on his PH. If this happens, should I just start to rebuild my projects from 1988?

[Edited at 2005-12-11 19:04]

[Edited at 2005-12-11 21:25]



Dear Luca:
Now that I read that my site has been mentioned as a sort of "bad example", I would like to make some considerations about myself and the topic involved.

1.- First of all: YES, IT IS GENUINE. If you take a look into my profile, you will have no doubt: a graduated Architect (1996), with good knowledge of German and English (which are the working languages I happen to offer), and by no means a sworn translator, which I am not - my additional degrees are: Teacher of German as a Foreign Language (Goethe-Institut) and Certificate of Proficiency in English (Cambridge). All the same, I do have experience translating texts.

2.- Regarding the years of experience: my experience as a "professional translator" started out "de facto" during the years 2000-2001: I worked in Germany for a building contractor, and I was involved in several architectural projects meant to be developed later in South America. That is to say: there were people trusting me as an Architect, and at the same time trusting my ability to translate not just texts, but whole concepts of architectural projects, real estate management, building contractor schemes, regulations from very different countries, etc. I happen to have a rich experience - and with the years passing by, the new opportunities came in the field of translation itself.

3.- Concerning the age of the projects: I didn't find it bad to put some of my oldest projects into consideration, because I just considered it a question of honesty (so to say: my "real-time beginning as a translator"). I agree with you that some of the projects are not easy for third parties to corroborate, since the contact with some of the clients gets lost. But I have already asked all the clients I could to give me a feedback of the projects involved. Most of them, ProZ.com members.

4.- Regarding the size and amount of projects: Yes, I have put so far 28 projects in my PH. But the actual amount of projects I have undertaken so far (since 2000) is 70+, normally 3,000 to 6,000 words long, some bigger, some smaller. I happened to mention the most relevant ones, or some of them which are especially interesting - I didn't want to bore readers giving details of every single project out of a list of 70+

5.- About the languages involved: I do NOT "work fluently with 8 languages". If you look more carefully at my PH, you will see that 20 projects are German to Spanish and 2 are Spanish to German ones. As you can see, my actual specialization is as a "German-Spanish translator". I can translate from English as well - and sometimes from Portuguese, too (which was one of my last projects, and a very successful one). The rest of the languages are a sort of "incidental projects": the projects' names are always "WinAlign of texts for a TM", and they are NOT translations, but editing jobs: I was given pairs of already translated texts (which didn't even need to be proofread), and all I did was to execute a WinAlign with TRADOS, that is: to facilitate the generation of TM's for other peoples' projects. And notice one important thing: ALL of those WinAlign editing jobs were related to the same topic: "Schleifmaschinen", of which I did two big translations of more than 46,000 words each. So to say: the WinAlign editing jobs were just an extension of two other big projects - but "incidentally", in different languages.

This comments are meant as a collaboration in this long and unending process of perfecting ProZ.com - I just wanted to tell the truth about myself, and to make some things clear. Perhaps you did a very quick reading of my profile or my PH and got a false impression. Sometimes the presentation of profiles or other features is not optimal for every Internet user in a hurry to find the right information.

And a final opinion about the PH concept in general: personally I happened to welcome the PH feature with my hands wide-opened - perhaps I didn't notice that PH could become, as you say, a "dangerous weapon".
One suggestion could go like this: ask Henry to allow only ProZ.com members to corroborate projects, or to display only projects which have already been corroborated.

Best regards,
Fabio Descalzi - "fadesga" - No. 74269

[Edited at 2005-12-12 02:40]

[Edited at 2005-12-12 02:48]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 00:37
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Only corroborated projects affect directory listings. Dec 12, 2005

Walter Landesman wrote:
Mihai Badea wrote:
Considering the potentially high risk of deceit, it may also be a good idea that only corroborated projects are shown for public view.

This is an interesting idea. It might help to calm down all those concerns about making up projects.

Only corroborated projects affect directory listings. However, I don't see a problem in listing non-corroborated projects in the profile. (People can do that anyway in the free-text portion of their profiles.)


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 00:37
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
I feel the opposite, Luca Dec 12, 2005

Luca Tutino wrote:
Mihai Badea wrote:
Considering the potentially high risk of deceit, it may also be a good idea that only corroborated projects are shown for public view.

In my opinion made up corroborations will be virtually undetectable, while a false statement on CV can be very easily exposed.

I think it is harder to fake a project without corroboration than it is to fake a project with corroboration. A project corroborated by a top-level Blue Board outsourcer and two platinum colleagues, for example, could be considered true with a fairly high degree of certainty.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 00:37
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
A good example, fadesga Dec 12, 2005

fadesga wrote:
Now that I see that my site has been mentioned as a sort of "bad example", I would like to make some considerations about the topic involved.

I don't think it was brought up as a "bad" example... just an example for discussion. In my opinion, it is a good example of how to use the project history.


 
Vladimir Dubisskiy
Vladimir Dubisskiy
United States
Local time: 23:37
Member (2001)
English to Russian
+ ...
another though Dec 12, 2005

Considering that the projects sometimes can be spread in time - and thus entered not exactly in order, it would be nice to add some arrangement feature \ button (like in Windows - arrange icons..) - to arrange projects? say, in chronological order.

 
Larissa Dinsley
Larissa Dinsley  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:37
Member (2003)
English to Russian
+ ...
Concerns Dec 12, 2005

I find this discussion very interesting but I cannot make up my mind whether I like the new feature or not

Initially, I thought it was a great idea. Then, I had some second thoughts and now I am not sure at all.

Below are some of my concerns:

1) First, I think this feature is only good if you do mention the names of your clients. I have some direct clients whom I am very proud to have as cu
... See more
I find this discussion very interesting but I cannot make up my mind whether I like the new feature or not

Initially, I thought it was a great idea. Then, I had some second thoughts and now I am not sure at all.

Below are some of my concerns:

1) First, I think this feature is only good if you do mention the names of your clients. I have some direct clients whom I am very proud to have as customers. But I would be very reluctant to name them publicly for a number of reasons. OK, I can hide their names, but then I do not really see the point of having such a list - in publicity terms - at all.

2) I agree with Giovanni - I would be very embarrassed to ask clients for their feedback. Moreover, if I do a number of projects for the same client, do I ask him/her to put their comments every time I do a job for them? Surely, people may not want to be bothered all the time? And if I don't, then there is no feedback. What is the value of such entry?

3) I have a number of customers, mainly direct clients, who are not members of ProZ and have never heard about the site. They are busy people with busy schedules and I definitely would not want to bother them and to ask them to make an extra effort and post some feedback for me.

4) I may be wrong, but I am under the impression it is meant to be a kind of Blue Board of translators. When we post our feedback for agencies, we can give both positive and negative feedback. Is anybody going to allow any negative comments? Otherwise, it appears to be a very biased list.

5) And finally, the eternal question of confidentiality. Some clients may not like this kind of publicity at all which would prevent us from including some interesting and important projects in the list.

I think this may be a good individual feature which people can use - if they like - but they should not be forced into it and, therefore, this list should not appear in the directory, but should be available only from one's profile. Because it may disadvantage some people who are really good translators but happen to have a different point of view regarding their marketing strategy, relations with clients and publicity.

Cheers,

Larissa



[Edited at 2005-12-12 09:01]
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