| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Andrew Morris of the ProZ.com team is airing personal views on a variety of subjects (Staff: 'yes') Thread poster: Fiona Grace Peterson
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@ahartje
I think we've established that the core issue was legitimate and has now been addressed. In my few comments made on the forum since the discussion took place, I've always started "Freelance hat on" + disclaimer, or "Site staff hat on".
I am of course the same person, whatever my headgear, but I hope that makes things clearer and avoids confusion.
The ambiguity you highlight is inherent within my role. Whenever posting about any initiatives as part... See more @ahartje
I think we've established that the core issue was legitimate and has now been addressed. In my few comments made on the forum since the discussion took place, I've always started "Freelance hat on" + disclaimer, or "Site staff hat on".
I am of course the same person, whatever my headgear, but I hope that makes things clearer and avoids confusion.
The ambiguity you highlight is inherent within my role. Whenever posting about any initiatives as part of my official duties, whether here or in social media, then it's Site Staff. But my remit does also involve talking to freelancers about freelancing.
It may be a departure from tradition, sure. But there again, which company ever stays the same for decades and survives? In fact, I was brought in precisely because I AM a freelance translator, based on a decision taken not by me of course, but by ProZ.com, as part of its revised mission.
Very few of the site staff apart from me have ten years of freelance experience immediately prior to taking up their duties. I have stuff to offer, and I'm not really going away.
Of course I expect and welcome disagreement on what I might say from all and sundry.
But less so on my right to say it... ▲ Collapse
| | | | ahartje
Portugal
Local time: 23:04
Member (2006)
German to Portuguese
+ ...
| @Andrew Morris - site staff | Apr 23, 2019 |
Nice to e-meet you too.
"I think we've established that the core issue was legitimate and has now been addressed"
When and where?
"I am of course the same person, whatever my headgear"
That´s exactly the problem and issue of this thread.
"The ambiguity you highlight is inherent within my role."
See... that´s the point!!
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Well then I suggest you write to ProZ.com and query their strategic thinking and decision-making. Good luck with that.
I thought the problem was the way I wrote as a Site Staff member while pronouncing on freelance issues. And that together we had reached a conclusion involving the liberal and frequent use of disclaimers.
I didn't realise it was that I have no right to occupy that role in the first place...
Surely that decision belongs to my employers and ... See more Well then I suggest you write to ProZ.com and query their strategic thinking and decision-making. Good luck with that.
I thought the problem was the way I wrote as a Site Staff member while pronouncing on freelance issues. And that together we had reached a conclusion involving the liberal and frequent use of disclaimers.
I didn't realise it was that I have no right to occupy that role in the first place...
Surely that decision belongs to my employers and the owners of this site?
A little reality check might be in order here... ▲ Collapse
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My label now reads "ProZ.com team" which should allow me both to make reference to the work I am doing for ProZ.com AND to my freelance role. I'll still use disclaimers to dispel any lingering doubts.
If anyone has any problems with this terminology, please take it up with ProZ.com HQ. I've done all I can to resolve the situation.
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:04
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| I'd like less of it, please | Apr 25, 2019 |
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
Curious to know what others think.
I don't understand ProZ's reasoning. There are many experienced translators on this forum who hold strong views and who share them at length. It's not as if we have a shortage of such individuals, right?
The addition of another, albeit bearing ProZ's imprimatur, adds no special value in my eyes, especially since he has not shown himself particularly adept at navigating the, ah, psychological currents of the forum.
From the quick scan I have done of the several threads in which he has involved, he has managed to put a lot of backs up in a very short space of time. Road to hell, good intentions, etc.
I would prefer that ProZ staff concentrated their man-hours on improving the forum system rather than on actively participating in the forum itself.
Regards,
Dan
| | | | Erik Freitag
Germany
Local time: 00:04
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
| About this particular role | Apr 25, 2019 |
Leaving the question of who said what and whose tone and mindset is inappropriate aside, I think the fact that Andrew's postings stir up so much irritation amongst proz members may in itself constitute an indication that he is seriously underperforming in (if not outright contradicting) his role, which in another thread he described as
Andrew Morris wrote:
... messaging, in the sense of ensuring fluid communication in two ways.
I strongly agree with Dan:
Dan Lucas wrote:
The addition of another [individual who holds strong views and who shares them at length], albeit bearing ProZ's imprimatur, adds no special value in my eyes, especially since he has not shown himself particularly adept at navigating the, ah, psychological currents of the forum.
From the quick scan I have done of the several threads in which he has involved, he has managed to put a lot of backs up in a very short space of time. Road to hell, good intentions, etc.
I would prefer that ProZ staff concentrated their man-hours on improving the forum system rather than on actively participating in the forum itself.
[Edited at 2019-04-25 07:35 GMT]
| | | | | Maybe his role is supposed ... | Apr 25, 2019 |
to train an AI system here at proz.com to be established in the future, a kind of robo moderator, who could cope and keep up with the most prominent posters in this forum? Think of answers to the following ever-repeating questions and contributions: "Alexa, what do you think of PEMT?" or "Alexa, why doesn´t Studio 2021 recognice terms in Multiterm 2021?" and, of course "Alexa, is even in 2021 a price of USD 0.05 still appropriate for more than ten years of experience" etc.
| | | | | On hats and disclaimers | Apr 25, 2019 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
My label now reads "ProZ.com team" which should allow me both to make reference to the work I am doing for ProZ.com AND to my freelance role.
Forgive me, but I don't see the difference. How is "ProZ.com team" different from "SITE STAFF"? (Apart from the fact that the latter is in capital letters).
Andrew Morris wrote:
I'll still use disclaimers to dispel any lingering doubts.
But why the need for any disclaimer at all? As has already been said, if you post as "ProZ.com team" , it is generally assumed that the views expressed are those of the "ProZ.com team". If you feel the views you want to express do not reflect those of the "Proz.com team", then you should post using your freelance profile.
Dan Lucas wrote:
The addition of another, albeit bearing ProZ's imprimatur, adds no special value in my eyes, especially since he has not shown himself particularly adept at navigating the, ah, psychological currents of the forum.
From the quick scan I have done of the several threads in which he has involved, he has managed to put a lot of backs up in a very short space of time. Road to hell, good intentions, etc.
Couldn't agree more.
Dan Lucas wrote:
I would prefer that ProZ staff concentrated their man-hours on improving the forum system rather than on actively participating in the forum itself.
Yup. Such as a multi-quote button. Or a "block" feature, allowing us to block content from posters whose contributions we don't want to read. Features that have been widely available on other forums ever since their inception.
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I so agree on the block button Fiona. I happen to think it's a very healthy way of dealing with toxic people. I am passing that on to Support as we speak.
As for whether my role is going well, I've said it here before and I'll say it again. It is going extremely well on Facebook, where communication is more fluid than ever before and numbers have simply shot up. There's also a very pleasant atmosphere: such things do exist, believe it or not.
But here on the Forum, wha... See more I so agree on the block button Fiona. I happen to think it's a very healthy way of dealing with toxic people. I am passing that on to Support as we speak.
As for whether my role is going well, I've said it here before and I'll say it again. It is going extremely well on Facebook, where communication is more fluid than ever before and numbers have simply shot up. There's also a very pleasant atmosphere: such things do exist, believe it or not.
But here on the Forum, what if part of my role has is to shake things up a bit? Without knowing my terms of reference, you are simply not in a position to judge whether it is a success or not. End of story.
And while we're pronouncing success and failure, why not ask yourselves also whether the Forum itself, with all its "psychological currents", is an unmitigated triumph? Sure, it's always been this way etc. etc., but I have had many, many messages from people who are intimidated and scared to speak up here.
That doesn't exactly spell success to me.
Finally, re the nomenclature debate, I am now slightly bored with it. You know where to write to ProZ.com HQ. Take it up with them if you think it really occupies your thoughts so much... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Susan Madden
Ireland
Local time: 23:04
Member (2005)
German to English
| My two cents | Apr 25, 2019 |
I'm not sure if I've ever written on the ProZ forums before, but I feel compelled to do so now.
I've always felt the ProZ staff take a lot of stick when they announce changes or make statements on the forums, some of it deserved, some not. And I've always admired how they continue to engage and maintain a respectful and intelligent tone, responding to the feedback, taking it on board and forcefully defending their positions when necessary, but not lowering the tone of the debate the... See more I'm not sure if I've ever written on the ProZ forums before, but I feel compelled to do so now.
I've always felt the ProZ staff take a lot of stick when they announce changes or make statements on the forums, some of it deserved, some not. And I've always admired how they continue to engage and maintain a respectful and intelligent tone, responding to the feedback, taking it on board and forcefully defending their positions when necessary, but not lowering the tone of the debate themselves even when provoked. I have been on this site for almost 15 years and have not read all forum entries by staff, but that has been my general impression.
Andrew, I find some of your responses in the forums both aggressive and dismissive and not in keeping with the professionalism displayed to date by the other ProZ staff. I understand your approach is to meet fire with fire, but, as you are now representing ProZ itself, I feel it has diminished my overall respect for the site and how it is operated. If a supermarket chain receives a provocative tweet from a disgruntled shopper along the lines of "My local store is a dump and all of your staff are smelly", I certainly wouldn't expect the response to this to be "Well, why don't you shove off somewhere else, then", as much as the person administering the official Twitter account may be itching to type it.
I joined the Facebook group this week and like it so far, and perhaps promoting that and encouraging discussion there is where your forte lies, Andrew, imho. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Two cents well received | Apr 25, 2019 |
I think you have a point Susan. I'm always prepared to listen when people express themselves calmly... just goes to show the power of language.
I accept your argument about representing ProZ.com and will tone it down. I've always thought it's much easier to deal with people when everyone gets along. I was very taken aback when I first posted here (on an innocent, non-controversial subject), at the level of tension and aggression, and I remain convinced there is a cultural issue to b... See more I think you have a point Susan. I'm always prepared to listen when people express themselves calmly... just goes to show the power of language.
I accept your argument about representing ProZ.com and will tone it down. I've always thought it's much easier to deal with people when everyone gets along. I was very taken aback when I first posted here (on an innocent, non-controversial subject), at the level of tension and aggression, and I remain convinced there is a cultural issue to be tackled.
But perhaps not overnight. And perhaps not, as you say, in this way.
You're right: I will concentrate my attention on where I can do good. Glad you're enjoying the FB group.
And thanks for your contribution to this debate. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 18:04
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The crux of the problem | Apr 25, 2019 |
Dan Lucas wrote: Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
Curious to know what others think. I don't understand ProZ's reasoning. There are many experienced translators on this forum who hold strong views and who share them at length. It's not as if we have a shortage of such individuals, right? The addition of another, albeit bearing ProZ's imprimatur, adds no special value in my eyes, especially since he has not shown himself particularly adept at navigating the, ah, psychological currents of the forum. From the quick scan I have done of the several threads in which he has involved, he has managed to put a lot of backs up in a very short space of time. Road to hell, good intentions, etc. I would prefer that ProZ staff concentrated their man-hours on improving the forum system rather than on actively participating in the forum itself. Regards, Dan
I strongly agree with this. The real problem here can, I think, be summed up as follows: Andrew appears to have been hired to act as a kind of one-man goon squad to get in the faces of people who are perceived as being negative in any substantive way about the site. In fulfilling this role, he has repeatedly engaged in behavior that, if displayed by ordinary members, would have resulted in removal of posts and perhaps even warnings of expulsion (i.e., given the multiple repeat offenses within a short period of time).
This is troubling, and I think that the strategic planning here has gone sadly askew.
[Edited at 2019-04-25 16:24 GMT]
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| I don't think it's as complex as that | Apr 25, 2019 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
Andrew appears to have been hired to act as a kind of one-man goon squad to get in the faces of people who are perceived as being negative in any substantive way about the site.
I don't think it's anything that complex. Andrew's track record has shown that diplomacy and maintaining peaceful community relations are not always his forte.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:04
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Killing the discussions | Apr 25, 2019 |
Maybe the policy is to kill these discussions by making them abusive, thereby forcing everyone to use Facebook? (something I will never do).
| | | | | Two more cents | Apr 25, 2019 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
I accept your argument about representing ProZ.com and will tone it down. I've always thought it's much easier to deal with people when everyone gets along. I was very taken aback when I first posted here (on an innocent, non-controversial subject), at the level of tension and aggression, and I remain convinced there is a cultural issue to be tackled.
I'm going to try to head you off at the pass this time.
While I might personally belong to the "toxic" minority who really does experience you primarily in terms of an "agent provocateur" or "one-man goon squad," I recognize that this is your first week at a new job, and I would like to avoid contributing to making your life miserable.
I think your apology is a good example of what drives some of us so crazy: You start off by acknowledging fault and stating that you will do things differently ("will tone it down"), but then you seamlessly transition into the project of changing us ("a cultural issue to be tackled").
Personally, I have searched my soul and discovered that, while sometimes a helpful citizen of ProZia, I am also frequently a snide and self-righteous jerk. Because it seemed like too much work to work on both faults at once, I decided to work on the more irritating one first. I don't think I've made any insinuations at any point in this post.
My recommendation is that you just not respond to posts like this at all, but also that you privately genuinely take them to heart and figure out how to generate less hostility.
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