Defining vs translating Thread poster: Salam Alrawi
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Salam Alrawi 
United States
Local time: 17:54
English to Arabic
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Have you ever noticed that when Someone asks for help translating a term that has 2 or more words, many translators would define it in the other language rather than translate it? You know what I mean?
A quick example that comes to my mind is: "to shower", it becomes, in the other language, "to wash one's body"
It sounds to me the translator is not translating it rather than giving the definition of it, only it is in the other language.
That other language is goi... See more Have you ever noticed that when Someone asks for help translating a term that has 2 or more words, many translators would define it in the other language rather than translate it? You know what I mean?
A quick example that comes to my mind is: "to shower", it becomes, in the other language, "to wash one's body"
It sounds to me the translator is not translating it rather than giving the definition of it, only it is in the other language.
That other language is going to be full of definitions
I could be wrong though, is this right? Acceptable? Ok? Specially if the answer is with high confidence "I'm sure" type thing and the asker goes "yohoo, I got it"
Is it ok to use this method as a last resort? Or the translator is just trying to win points?
Seems like many don't search the term of difficulty, they don't spend enough time to make sure it is right. Again this could be due to the tight deadlines they have.
I know sometimes it takes me hours to find a term I'm looking for.
Wonder what do you guys think? Your hypothesis, or some examples you would like to share.
Salam
[Edited at 2014-11-02 06:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 23:54
Spanish to English
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| I don't see a problem | Nov 2, 2014 |
Salam Alrawi wrote: That other language is going to be full of definitions I could be wrong though, is this right? Acceptable? Ok? Specially if the answer is with high confidence "I'm sure" type thing and the asker goes "yohoo, I got it" Is it ok to use this method as a last resort? Or the translator is just trying to win points?
The other language may very well not have a corresponding term. I work mostly in Maths & Stats which is very exact but, even there, terms don't necessarily correspond. For example, Portuguese "gráfico mono-log" has an English equivalent but not, as far as I could determine, a German one - see
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/portuguese_to_german/mathematics_statistics/5662231-gráfico_mono_log.html
I imagine that the German translator was much happier to get the definitional answer "eine Grafik auf einfachlogarithmisches Papier" rather than no response at all.
I totally agree with you re answers posted with high confidence - in some groups, 5 is often posted for completely wrong answers. It seems to be a cultural thing.
| | | | | there is not "one" translation | Nov 2, 2014 |
Hi,
to me there is not "one" translation as the proofreaders seem to think. For instance, one word in English may correspond to 2 or 3 words in French, and the other way around: one word in French may correspond to 2 or 3 words in English. Of course this depends on the context.
Often it is better to have a good "sentence" translation than a suite of n "word to word" translations.
A definition should not be presented as a Kudoz answer, but as a comment. Some... See more Hi,
to me there is not "one" translation as the proofreaders seem to think. For instance, one word in English may correspond to 2 or 3 words in French, and the other way around: one word in French may correspond to 2 or 3 words in English. Of course this depends on the context.
Often it is better to have a good "sentence" translation than a suite of n "word to word" translations.
A definition should not be presented as a Kudoz answer, but as a comment. Sometimes it is very helpful.
Madeleine
[Edited at 2014-11-02 14:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post |
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| Just like bilingual dictionaries | Nov 2, 2014 |
Salam Alrawi wrote:
A quick example that comes to my mind is: "to shower", it becomes, in the other language, "to wash one's body"
It sounds to me the translator is not translating it rather than giving the definition of it, only it is in the other language.
That is exactly what you find in bilingual dictionaries, when in the target language there is no exact term that corresponds to the term in the source language.
It is not a rare occurrence.
| | | | | Yes, I think you are right, Salam. | Nov 2, 2014 |
It may be Ok to give a definition or a description of a word or term if someone just wants to know what it means. When you translate, you have to convey the meaning, and use structures which would be idiomatic in the target language--you cannot start explaining things, or giving definitions. You have to find a corresponding term, instead.
[Edited at 2014-11-02 17:23 GMT]
| | | | Salam Alrawi
United States
Local time: 17:54
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Just an opinion | Nov 2, 2014 |
DLyons: yes it is good to provide help using a definition rather than none, but it shouldn't be an answer right away, that's where searching the definition can help someone finds the correct answer. It will take time, yes it will, but I would be more accurate plus next time I am about to translate the same term, it is going to be instant(that's the idea that SDL trados was built on I believe).
Madeleine: yes there might be no one translation sometimes, but there is one that d... See more DLyons: yes it is good to provide help using a definition rather than none, but it shouldn't be an answer right away, that's where searching the definition can help someone finds the correct answer. It will take time, yes it will, but I would be more accurate plus next time I am about to translate the same term, it is going to be instant(that's the idea that SDL trados was built on I believe).
Madeleine: yes there might be no one translation sometimes, but there is one that definitely fit the best and more commonly used. This is kind of how translation can form sometimes, if the term is very commonly used in a language then it becomes the translation term for that language.
Miguel: yes the bilingual dictionaries do that, but that isn't necessary a translation rather than the dictionary is defining or explaining the term. If you said this 15 years ago then I would have totally agreed with you. There weren't as many global translations as there are now and they were very limited and many were isolated. But with the presence of Proz.com, translators came more close and many terms were corrected, found and even developed.
Lilian: notice how I said "the other language" while you correctly said "target language"', I kind of defined it while you translated it. Even though people understood what I meant but that doesn't mean I am correct, I should have used the term "target language" to be more accurate.
One example is: contracts
Each type of contracts (specially if they are commonly used internationally, i.e between countries) has already been translated back and forth thousands of times and to different languages, to the point that many became so easy to translate if you pull up sample copies of the contract in both (source and target language) thanks to the Internet. You migh have to make little changes if there are some specific additions but generally they will be the same.
There is no room here to define the term, it should be translated.
Again, this is just an opinion.
[Edited at 2014-11-02 18:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 23:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
| That's fine if there is one. | Nov 2, 2014 |
LilianNekipelov wrote:
It may be Ok to give a definition or a description of a word or term if someone just wants to know what it means. When you translate, you have to convey the meaning, and use structures which would be idiomatic in the target language--you cannot start explaining things, or giving definitions. You have to find a corresponding term, instead.
[Edited at 2014-11-02 17:23 GMT]
Often there isn't a corresponding term. Or there is, and it's in everyday use by practitioners, but it's English.
At least in the EN-ES pair (and probably others), you'll then find people suggesting politically-correct Spanish terms that nobody actually uses but which they will defend to the death (I have the bite marks to prove it).
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DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 23:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Salam Alrawi
United States
Local time: 17:54
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | It is correct translation I believe | Nov 2, 2014 |
First of all, you were lucky to be answered by a Syrian translator in this regard. Till at least 2008 Syria always taught medicine in Arabic, while most Arab countries teach it in English like I had.
I think since Camels are mostly found in Arab regions, the term probably was formed there and then transliterated to other languages. But if you look at the actual medical term (for dulla or Douala) it is: palatine diverticulum , which gives you the meaning of : الرتج الحنكي
http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/2010/11/22/camel-dhula-gazelle-palatal-sac/
As for the term : نفشفة it basically means inflatable, as that part of the neck is inflatable.
Many other terms were transliterated from English to Arabic and from Arabic to English. I understand that for names, but for terms? I'm not sure.
My point is: even if I define the term, I still need to search the definition to reach the proper translation. And that's what makes someone's translation different and may be desirable.
Again, I could be wrong. It is just an opinion.
| | | | | Onomatopoeic words do not always have equivalents | Nov 3, 2014 |
Just as an example
A recent question from Danish to English was about boots or footwear that 'svuppe' and cause blisters. This is a verb for the sound of rubber boots when someone walks in them.
English has people shuffling because their footwear is too large, but no actual equivalent of 'svuppe', which is what the boots do. The answer was simply to explain that the boots were too loose or too big, and rephrase the sentence.
I have come across numerous exa... See more Just as an example
A recent question from Danish to English was about boots or footwear that 'svuppe' and cause blisters. This is a verb for the sound of rubber boots when someone walks in them.
English has people shuffling because their footwear is too large, but no actual equivalent of 'svuppe', which is what the boots do. The answer was simply to explain that the boots were too loose or too big, and rephrase the sentence.
I have come across numerous examples over the years, even in closely related languages, where there simply is no exact equivalent. That is why computers are not going to take over our work any time soon - it is the rule rather than the exception that you cannot simply replace any given word or expression with another specific equivalent.
This sort of problem often comes up in KudoZ, because the easy words are in the dictionaries or translators just know them.
If there is an equivalent, then of course it s best to use it, but another problem is that the exact equivalent of a common expression in one language is not generally understood in another, even if it exists. Here it is a matter of judgement, but as a rule I would go for the generally used and understood explanation. The exception would be if, for technical reasons, the unusual expression was required, perhaps in a legal or technical context.
In the Danish question, one language focuses on the boots, while the other is more concerned with the wearer.
In Danish you fit your clothes - 'Du kan passe de bukser' (literally = you can fit those trousers).
Which sounds very odd to an English person! I want the trousers to fit me 
There are hundreds of examples between any two languages.
Back to work - I could go on for ever! ▲ Collapse
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Some contributors earn showers of praise; some are a shower.
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