| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Do most errors occur in understanding, translation, or formulation? Thread poster: Phil Hand
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 16:37
Chinese to English
This question has come up in other threads, but I can't remember a thread specifically about it, so I thought I'd do one. In your experience, where do the majority of problems/errors in translation occur?
I assume that most of you will, like me, be drawing on experience of our own errors and the errors of those whom we have proofread. Perhaps some of you have done teaching, too, and can talk about student problems.
Not all translation errors are easy to analyse, but I t... See more This question has come up in other threads, but I can't remember a thread specifically about it, so I thought I'd do one. In your experience, where do the majority of problems/errors in translation occur?
I assume that most of you will, like me, be drawing on experience of our own errors and the errors of those whom we have proofread. Perhaps some of you have done teaching, too, and can talk about student problems.
Not all translation errors are easy to analyse, but I think in many cases we can tell basically what's gone wrong. Sometimes it's that the translator just hasn't understood the text. Sometimes the translator has understood the text but tried to express it in the wrong way in the target language. Sometimes it's something else.
In my personal theory of translation, I think there are only two phases: reading and writing. But it may be that there's an intermediate translation phase between the two as well. Whatever your model of translation, I'm interested to know where you think most of the problems arise in current commercial practice.
In my pair, this question is a no-brainer. All of the major problems arise in comprehension of the source text. What is interesting to me is that I haven't seen an obvious difference between source native and target native translators. Chinese translators make their major mistakes when they fail to understand the source; Brit/American translators make their major mistakes in the same way. I wonder if that's true in other pairs? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:37
Member (2008)
Italian to English
There should not be any errors in a finished translation.
| | | | Sebastian Witte
Germany
Local time: 10:37
Member (2004)
English to German
+ ...
| I think this question is pretty easy to answer | Nov 30, 2014 |
It's basically like this: when translating the stuff that is presented before a professional translator (the easier material gets done in-house by company employees or in the semi-professional area where the principle "I know someone who knows someone that can probably do it in return for a dinner" seems to apply) from a foreign language, the main issue will always be comprehension, even for an excellent translator. There are certain differences between hard (Brazilian Portuguese) and slightly e... See more It's basically like this: when translating the stuff that is presented before a professional translator (the easier material gets done in-house by company employees or in the semi-professional area where the principle "I know someone who knows someone that can probably do it in return for a dinner" seems to apply) from a foreign language, the main issue will always be comprehension, even for an excellent translator. There are certain differences between hard (Brazilian Portuguese) and slightly easier source languages and even within a given difficult source language, sometimes translating into certain target languages can feel a bit easier than into others (due to structural similarities between source and target language).
When translating the stuff that is presented before a professional translator into a foreign language from their native language, comprehension will play an important minor part (it's really noticeably easier then) and rendering meaning properly extracted from the source the correct way (producing native-level copy) becomes the principal challenge to overcome.
I do not really understand what you mean by translation vs. formulation, Phil. Ain't that the same thing, as opposed to comprehension?
In case you thought of "formulation" as comprising everything to do with finalising the "first quality draft" the translator has produced - I think that last part of the work (before post-formatting and delivery) is not prone to any errors, not one bit actually.
Best regards,
Sebastian
[Edited at 2014-11-30 16:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 16:37
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Comprehension | Nov 30, 2014 |
Always comprehension. No exceptions.
There can be poor language, clumsy language, convoluted language, and translatese that is prevalent in ENG>CHI translations. But those are not errors.
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David Wright
Austria
Local time: 10:37
German to English
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| Taking a slightly different startuing point | Nov 30, 2014 |
If I consider the errors I notice I have made in my first draft, most of them are due not to misunderstanding the source, but rather to misreading it. (or being careless in what I have produced - forgetting a" not" being I think the most common. Since I dictate my translations, there are often "errors" that arise because I've not read far enough in the text and the word order gets all wrong, but I tend to flag these as I go along, so they probably don't count.
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Phil Hand wrote:
In my personal theory of translation, I think there are only two phases: reading and writing.
I reckon this is just what you perceive, since we at a professional level translate so quickly in our minds that we tend to think there is some kind of magic machine in our heads that does the trick. However, translation does have a cognitive process, which on the other hand is hard to study because you cannot really stick a thousand sensors in a translator's brain or slice it down to pieces while translation takes place. Scholars in Translation Studies are working on it though. I mean the process, not slicing people's brains!
I work in two language pairs and, having had a number of trainees from University working with me over the years, I would summarise that:
- In English into Spanish, most translators read and understand the source text quite well, perhaps because most people in Spain grow up listening to some English (in songs, films, TV series, in foreigners living here...). This involuntary "use of English" makes it possible to develop good reading comprehension skills fairly quickly. Bad quality is mostly caused at cognitive level, i.e. when we manipulate the ideas before producing the Spanish grammar out of them. Newbies try to bend the English grammar structure, which could indicate that their cognitive process is weak, or simply that their process is not yet "spiked" with knowledge about the usual pitfalls of English-Spanish translation.
- As for German into Spanish, I would say that most mistakes originate at reading: Spanish people are very rarely exposed to German at an early age, and German grammar structures are hard to parse for translators who acquired the language by training. Newbies tend to see inexistent things in the source text, thus altering the result altogether.
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It is fairly unlikely that you make any important mistake in your target language.
You may misunderstand or misread the source text, though. This is more likely, if the subject matter of the text is relatively new to you. Sometimes the source text is plain wrong, which is easier to detect, or wrong in a subtle or ambiguous way, it could be "this" and it also could be "that", which is more difficult to detect.
The biggest mistakes we can possibly make it accepting too t... See more It is fairly unlikely that you make any important mistake in your target language.
You may misunderstand or misread the source text, though. This is more likely, if the subject matter of the text is relatively new to you. Sometimes the source text is plain wrong, which is easier to detect, or wrong in a subtle or ambiguous way, it could be "this" and it also could be "that", which is more difficult to detect.
The biggest mistakes we can possibly make it accepting too tight deadlines, which prevents us from properly proofreading our text. Ideally, we should do it next day, with clearer head. This will eliminate typos and terminology inconsistencies. You may even polish the text a little bit. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Abslolutely--deadlines | Dec 1, 2014 |
They are the most toxic thing with regard to translation. They do not let the translator think freely, and check everything they would want to check, or work on the sentences to make the style perfect. If you know the source language really well, I think most errors--in the first draft, are a result of formulation. It is very important to be able to proofread the text after 24 hours since initially a translator concentrates more on extracting the meaning as accurately as possible, and the next ... See more They are the most toxic thing with regard to translation. They do not let the translator think freely, and check everything they would want to check, or work on the sentences to make the style perfect. If you know the source language really well, I think most errors--in the first draft, are a result of formulation. It is very important to be able to proofread the text after 24 hours since initially a translator concentrates more on extracting the meaning as accurately as possible, and the next phase is working on the style more.
[Edited at 2014-12-01 09:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:37
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Comprehension and formulation are related (it begins with comprehension), however, not all people who comprehend a text accurately will be able to formulate sentences well. Formulation is a higher skill that requires more training, experience, practice.
| | | | | problems with general language or technical terms | Dec 1, 2014 |
Phil: Are you saying that Chinese native-speakers can't understand Chinese texts significantly better than native-speakers of other languages? That seems counter-intuitive. Or are you talking specifically about errors involving technical terms and technical content (= lack of expert knowledge/lack of translation skills)?
In terms of technical terminology, it is usually a lot easier to understand the source text (if you don't understand something, all you have to do is to know where ... See more Phil: Are you saying that Chinese native-speakers can't understand Chinese texts significantly better than native-speakers of other languages? That seems counter-intuitive. Or are you talking specifically about errors involving technical terms and technical content (= lack of expert knowledge/lack of translation skills)?
In terms of technical terminology, it is usually a lot easier to understand the source text (if you don't understand something, all you have to do is to know where to look it up) than to know or find the right term in the target text.
Here, it's often hard to tell if translators have misunderstood what they read in the source text or what they wrote in the target text - and whether they did this because they don't know what they're talking about, because they can't understand their source language well enough, because they can't write their target language well enough, or because they lack translation skills (research skills and the "healthy paranoia" that all translators need in order to be able to work effectively).
Things like figurative language and (important) stylistic idiosyncrasies are also usually easier to identify than to duplicate or to otherwise replicate in the target language. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 10:37
French to English
| Why should anyone put up with reading convoluted prose? | Dec 1, 2014 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Always comprehension. No exceptions.
There can be poor language, clumsy language, convoluted language, and translatese that is prevalent in ENG>CHI translations. But those are not errors.
As far as I'm concerned, translatese is inexcusable. Whether it's due to plain laziness or lack of time for polishing, the reader of the translation then has to struggle much harder to understand the text because it's just not couched in smooth-flowing language that he would readily understand. Anyone with a basic grasp of both languages can translate like that, it takes a professional translator to do better. The ability to write clearly is what should set a professional translator apart.
This does of course apply mostly to marketing material where the aim is to appeal to the target audience, to sell them something. But I don't see why I should have to make any effort to understand the handbook when I'm trying to work out how to configure a new appliance. I'm not a technician and I need the handbook to be written very clearly because technical stuff can quickly give me a headache. If I need to read the handbook, it's because there's something I don't understand, so convoluted prose will be the last straw and I'll be demanding my money back.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 16:37
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
For all the interesting replies.
One of the reasons I asked is because the situation in my pair is, as Michael said, a bit counter-intuitive. English native speakers sometimes make errors of comprehension when reading Chinese source texts - that's to be expected. What's odd is that Chinese natives often seem to be bad readers of Chinese source texts as well: either they misread, or they make no effort to read whatsoever, and just throw in some dictionary equivalents. I'm talking her... See more For all the interesting replies.
One of the reasons I asked is because the situation in my pair is, as Michael said, a bit counter-intuitive. English native speakers sometimes make errors of comprehension when reading Chinese source texts - that's to be expected. What's odd is that Chinese natives often seem to be bad readers of Chinese source texts as well: either they misread, or they make no effort to read whatsoever, and just throw in some dictionary equivalents. I'm talking here about mainland Chinese translators, and I'm generalising horribly, of course. But in my experience proofreading, when I've proofread translations by Chinese natives I expected formulation problems to dominate, but in fact comprehension problems are much more common than I had imagined they would be. It's been puzzling me, and I wondered if the same thing happened in other pairs.
I apologise for the awkward wording as well. I think there are two possible models one can use for translation:
1) Translation = reading + writing
2) Translation = reading + interlanguage transfer process + writing
I lean towards the first model: I don't think there is any single process one can point to and say, "this is the transfer from language A to language B." But it's still an open question, so I wanted to leave it open. ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand wrote:
1) Translation = reading + writing
2) Translation = reading + interlanguage transfer process + writing
I lean towards the first model: I don't think there is any single process one can point to and say, "this is the transfer from language A to language B." But it's still an open question, so I wanted to leave it open.
Well, if the transfer process (the cognitive process that happens in your mind) did not exist, you would not be able to translate! It is not your hands that create the target text, but your brain!
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 16:37
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| It's not that hard to determine the translator's target language proficiency. | Dec 2, 2014 |
Here, it's often hard to tell if translators have misunderstood what they read in the source text or what they wrote in the target text - and whether they did this because they don't know what they're talking about, because they can't understand their source language well enough, because they can't write their target language well enough, or because they lack translation skills (research skills and the "healthy paranoia" that all translators need in order to be able to work effectively).
I won't speak for any other language pairs, but in English and Chinese pairs - both ways - there's no difficulty in distinguishing the two. It's blatantly obvious when the translator has no clue as to what's going on in the source, because it's really quite easy to gauge the translator's command of the target language from the rest of the target text.
As far as I'm concerned, translatese is inexcusable. Whether it's due to plain laziness or lack of time for polishing, the reader of the translation then has to struggle much harder to understand the text because it's just not couched in smooth-flowing language that he would readily understand. Anyone with a basic grasp of both languages can translate like that, it takes a professional translator to do better. The ability to write clearly is what should set a professional translator apart.
This does of course apply mostly to marketing material where the aim is to appeal to the target audience, to sell them something. But I don't see why I should have to make any effort to understand the handbook when I'm trying to work out how to configure a new appliance. I'm not a technician and I need the handbook to be written very clearly because technical stuff can quickly give me a headache. If I need to read the handbook, it's because there's something I don't understand, so convoluted prose will be the last straw and I'll be demanding my money back.
You're shooting at straw men.
[Edited at 2014-12-02 01:17 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 14:07
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | In presentation | Dec 2, 2014 |
My experience has been, the more serious issue is with presenting (to use your terminology - formulating) the translation in a form that is natural, fluent and elegant to the target language. The translation may be technically and semantically correct, yet it doesn't read correct. It is difficult to pin-point what is wrong with it, and even more difficult to correct it. It is equally difficult to explain to clients or even to the translators themselves what is wrong it and what could be done to ... See more My experience has been, the more serious issue is with presenting (to use your terminology - formulating) the translation in a form that is natural, fluent and elegant to the target language. The translation may be technically and semantically correct, yet it doesn't read correct. It is difficult to pin-point what is wrong with it, and even more difficult to correct it. It is equally difficult to explain to clients or even to the translators themselves what is wrong it and what could be done to improve it.
You can correct outright errors of comprehension, or grammar, but these kind of errors are hard to deal with. Only with much experience, feel for the source and target language, and a certain level of talent in translation and writing can one produce a translation that is a pleasure to read. It is perhaps unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that every translator would be able to produce such a translation every time. ▲ Collapse
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