| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Is there a general rule regarding all-uppercase words in French to English translation? Thread poster: Irene Johnson
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| | | Page 130 not there | Jun 5, 2016 |
It won't show me page 130, only page 131.
| | | | Huw Watkins 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:15
Member (2005)
Italian to English
+ ...
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
How do you know that?
...there's an actual clause in the original that states that in the case of a translation, the original French etc. prevails/takes precedent.
Not always though as you say. I do see that a lot though.
Irene Johnson wrote:
In addition, as I understand it, the terms designating the parties to a contract become proper nouns in English, so we also drop the "the". So for instance it's no longer "the Company" and "the Service provider", but rather "Company" and "Service provider". These terms replace the names of the company and the service provider, and become proper nouns. We wouldn't say: The Mary, so when Mary is the customer, we simply say Customer.
Yes I concur with this too. That's usually how I do it.
Irene Johnson wrote:
I've never seen a contract yet where they mention the gender of the nouns. I agree with you, this is not applicable in English. If you want to be sure not to leave anything out, you could put in a translator's note: [Translator's note: The French text also states that the definitions below apply to both the masculine and feminine versions of these words, which is not applicable in English.]
Good idea - thanks. I've only seen it a handful of times myself - today is one of those.
[Edited at 2016-06-05 15:19 GMT]
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| That works; weird | Jun 5, 2016 |
Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
If you go forward a page from page 131, then go back two pages, that seems to work.
Thanks, I managed to get it that way.
So the clear answer is that there is not one single, clear answer, as so often in law. It's a matter of style and taste. Just make it easy to read. The legal meaning is not affected. The rest is theatre.
Instead of focusing on capitalisation, it would seem much more important to focus on the meaning.
| | | | Irene Johnson
France
Local time: 13:15
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | In the case of an informational document, of course. | Jun 5, 2016 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
How do you know that?
If it's a consumer contract, the company can't just come running with a contract in a foreign language the consumer has not seen and cannot understand. In the EU at least, the company would be bound by the translated version.
If it's an informational translation, for example of a deed, it would most likely be the original that prevailed.
In other cases, it could depend on legislation and what the contract itself says about which version prevails. What if a translation agency has an original standard contract in their local language but make international translators sign a translated English version? Unless the contract specifically says another version will prevail in case of a dispute, I don't see how they could suddenly demand it (although that would not prevent some from trying).
We may not even know if we sign a translated version.
You're right, of course. I meant the case of the translation of a French contract or deed, for instance, signed between parties that speak different languages. The document is translated so that everyone knows what they're signing. But they sign the original version. Often these contracts will stipulate that the French version prevails in the event of a dispute.
Also, documents are translated for court cases. In this case, they're informational. If there is any question as to what the document says, the French source text prevails.
I certainly do everything to make sure that my translation is accurate. As I said, that is the most important thing, along with it being understandable.
| | | | Irene Johnson
France
Local time: 13:15
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Perfect! Thank you! | Jun 5, 2016 |
Yes!!! That's what exactly what I've been wanting to know!
Thank you very much!
| | | | Huw Watkins
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:15
Member (2005)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Not all the time | Jun 8, 2016 |
Irene Johnson wrote:
I have said the same for years. So the problem of Martin BERNARD or MARTIN Bernard doesn't exist in English. In the first case, we would write Martin Bernard, and in the second, Bernard Martin, and be done with it.
I'm not entirely convinced that this is true. It is indeed not completely uncommon to see instances of the surname coming before the first name in English, the difference being between French and English convention is that we use a comma in English i.e. Smith, John. You'll see this as an option for contacts in your phones (it was default I believe on my old blackberry), in outlook and numerous other scenarios - we were called by our surnames in school for example and when doing roll call they often added the first name after (perhaps showing my age and type of school there). The point being that it is not true to say that it is impossible to come across this scenario in English. I haven't seen it in many recent contracts though I must admit.
[Edited at 2016-06-08 06:30 GMT]
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Anne Raffolt
Canada
Local time: 07:15
English to French
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| From the other side... | Jun 11, 2016 |
I translate English contracts into French and change the capitalization to what is proper in French rather than respecting the original capitalization and this is something I have specifically discussed with some of my clients (although I can think of at least one for whom we write everything in lowercase). So for instance, the "Effective Date" will become the "Date d'entrée en vigueur" rather than the"Date d'Entrée en vigueur" or the "Date d'Entrée en Vigueur", the "Province of Quebec" will ... See more I translate English contracts into French and change the capitalization to what is proper in French rather than respecting the original capitalization and this is something I have specifically discussed with some of my clients (although I can think of at least one for whom we write everything in lowercase). So for instance, the "Effective Date" will become the "Date d'entrée en vigueur" rather than the"Date d'Entrée en vigueur" or the "Date d'Entrée en Vigueur", the "Province of Quebec" will become "la province de Québec"... and the "English version" of the text become the "version anglaise" or "version en langue anglaise".
However, I do encounter entire paragraphs in uppercase, generally liability disclaimers in terms of services or similar documents, and I keep the formatting for those. In this case, it is obvious to me that the uppercase is used not due to the application of English typographic rules, which should be replaced by the use of French typographic rules, but to reflect the intent of the redactor to add emphasis to those passages or make them more apparent. In this case, I reflect this intent by using uppercase in French as well (I am unsure what one would do in, say, Chinese but fortunately "shouting" is represented in writing by uppercases in both English and French).
It is also important to note that sometimes, the choice of formatting is actually not a choice but a legal requirement. For instance, in some Canadian prospectus, the applicable National Instrument requires that a specific sentence be printed in red ink and in italics on the top of the cover page. Likewise, the redactor could have defined a term with a capitalized first letter and then purposefully used the same term in all lowercase elsewhere in the text because he is not referring to the term as defined but to the term in its ordinary acceptation. In such cases, changing the formatting could change the meaning of the text or be in contravention of the law.
For this reason, I tend to be cautious about changing the formatting and err on the side of leaving the original formatting when in doubt, or better yet, I discuss it with the client.
[Edited at 2016-06-11 04:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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