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Absurd Chilean ruling affecting translators
Thread poster: traductorchile
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 21:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
And yes, Jul 24, 2016

I agree, the best should prevail. That is precisely why I'm after this ruling, because it delivers an unjustified privilege to a very small group, not based on competence.

 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 21:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Liviu Jul 24, 2016

liviu roth wrote:
Yes, I know Romanian translators, living in Romania or elsewhere, who translate highly technical material for the US market. Nothing wrong with that!


I can’t find anything wrong with that either. If they want to translate dog barks into cat meows, great!
What I call to your attention and you have overlooked is that this ruling (using the Romanian example) would mean that the US ruling would say US companies should give preference to a Romanian in Romania translating into English over a US native living in the US translating into English. This last one would have to get his competence legally endorsed by his client.


 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 20:27
Romanian to English
+ ...
sorry, bad example Jul 25, 2016

traductorchile wrote:

liviu roth wrote:
Yes, I know Romanian translators, living in Romania or elsewhere, who translate highly technical material for the US market. Nothing wrong with that!


I can’t find anything wrong with that either. If they want to translate dog barks into cat meows, great!
What I call to your attention and you have overlooked is that this ruling (using the Romanian example) would mean that the US ruling would say US companies should give preference to a Romanian in Romania translating into English over a US native living in the US translating into English. This last one would have to get his competence legally endorsed by his client.



According to the ATA list of Romanian translators, there are 0 (zero) US native translators to translate from Romanian into US English. I understand that with Spanish it is different.


Regarding the previous post, sometimes, real life does not match pure theory. Fortunately, the US government has other priorities than to meddle in the business of translation.

[Edited at 2016-07-25 02:26 GMT]


 
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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 00:27
Member (2007)
English
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@ traductorchile Jul 25, 2016

Can I ask what it was you hoped to achieve when you created this thread?

Personally, I found it utterly incomprehensible so didn't even try to respond. It was clear from the initial responses that I wasn't the only one feeling confused. Now it seems that the only person prepared to discuss it with you - in an honest way, it seems to me - is being abused and insulted. Was it your intention to look for a fight?


 
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neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 01:27
Spanish to English
+ ...
My 2 cents Jul 25, 2016

All I know is a friend of mine (not a translator) married a Chilean and moved there a few years ago. Virtually all he has done since then is complain about absurd bureaucratic rulings and conventions in all walks of life, so these and similarly nonsensical restrictive practices seem to be par for the course. Perhaps they are more readily perceived by outsiders...?

 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 21:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Liviu Jul 25, 2016

I could say Dear Liviu, but I don't want to sound sarcastic, because truly, and despite your roundabouts I'm not angry with you in particular. The topic I'm fighting for is not personal, it's professional, and I'm old and long experienced enough in translation to be above it, but it surely will affect the next generations.

What you say about a select group makes me assume you are in favour of select groups, if not you wouldn't
recommend that, right?

I don't beli
... See more
I could say Dear Liviu, but I don't want to sound sarcastic, because truly, and despite your roundabouts I'm not angry with you in particular. The topic I'm fighting for is not personal, it's professional, and I'm old and long experienced enough in translation to be above it, but it surely will affect the next generations.

What you say about a select group makes me assume you are in favour of select groups, if not you wouldn't
recommend that, right?

I don't believe select groups are part of open and transparent competition when rules give them unjustified privileges, unjustified according to recommended practices in translation.

If the arguments I have presented as recommended practices and current practices of the translation market (related to translation quality - not bad practices) are not correct, because those studies, which support those arguments are incorrect or insufficient, prove it. I have studied the topic in depth; those researchers whose research supports my arguments have studied each topic in further depth. Those efforts and rigor deserve respect; that respect is evident when the topic is attended with similar rigor and effort.


[Edited at 2016-07-25 17:03 GMT]
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Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 20:27
Romanian to English
+ ...
one suggestion Jul 31, 2016

Since it appears that you are familiar with the ATA, please check the list of Romanian to English translators and the list of Romanian to English interpreters. To your surprise, you will notice many names appearing on both lists. You also will notice Romanian native translators who are CERTIFIED to translate from English to French.

Personally, I am on the roster of judicial interpreters after I passed certain exams and I translate also official judicial documents for the DOJ (Minis
... See more
Since it appears that you are familiar with the ATA, please check the list of Romanian to English translators and the list of Romanian to English interpreters. To your surprise, you will notice many names appearing on both lists. You also will notice Romanian native translators who are CERTIFIED to translate from English to French.

Personally, I am on the roster of judicial interpreters after I passed certain exams and I translate also official judicial documents for the DOJ (Ministry of Justice).

Therefore, although I do not question the validity of academic researches, sometimes life is a little different than the theoretical dogma ... and as you rightly said it ....time will tell.

[Edited at 2016-07-31 03:02 GMT]
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traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 21:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I’l try and understand your point. Jul 31, 2016

interpreted from what liviu roth wrote:
ATA:
1- has Romanian to English translators and Romanian to English interpreters
2- many of these are both translators and interpreters (not to my surprise I must say, as it is very common that when there is little work, and there must be little for Romanian, people are willing to work in anything).
3- some Romanian native translators are Certified from English to French



1 – 2 The fact they exist don’t make them equal or different, they just exist, and as I understand, anyone can be a member of ATA, even Agencies that like exploiting translators.

3 – Here you have a variety of options:
- Some Romanian translators that translate into French are up to the ATA’s standards (that should mean, but not necessarily does mean, they are excellent translating into that language).
- ATA’s standard is not high enough so some Romanian translators get by although they are not good enough.
- ATA’s standard is too stringent, and that’s why only some translators get by, not all.

In Chile, we also have excellent translators who can translate into their non-native languages. However, what I have explained in my papers is:
- these are exceptions to the rule, that is, it is absurd to consider that if a few are up to the standard, all Romanian translators translating into French, should be considered up to the standard (or the rule). And specially not with preference over French natives, which have proved they are up to the standards imposed by French/Canadian bodies, or by other recommended means, the former (Romanians) must be evaluated individually by their competencies, and
- most actors in the industry, translation agencies and companies, translators’ associations, etc., enforce the use of natives of the target language. With agencies and companies, it’s an easy to verify fact, just open the website of any of them (there might be some exception of course, I haven’t examined all of them), and you’ll see: “we only hire translators who translate into their native language”.
The US standards on translation recommend it as good practices, wording it vaguely enough to derive that exceptions should be evaluated.


 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 20:27
Romanian to English
+ ...
it is a shame that you are not willing to understand Jul 31, 2016

We live in a global market and the trend is to expand it.

You assume that there is no work for Romanian translators/interpreters in the US. To your surprise, I let you know that combined, interpreting + translating, I work full time and have to decline many jobs ... and I am NOT the exception.

I am sorry you refuse to accept this reality.

[Edited at 2016-07-31 18:22 GMT]


 
traductorchile
traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 21:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
You are right Aug 1, 2016

I am not capable of understanding your line of thought, I believe the cause is having studied too much maths when I was young.
Can you please explain it in more detail, maybe if you can help me, I'll understand.

So, as you have lots of work, that implies you are not an exception, and as you are not an exception all Rumanian translators who translate into English are not an exception either, because they are great translators and are full of work. In fact they all (no exception
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I am not capable of understanding your line of thought, I believe the cause is having studied too much maths when I was young.
Can you please explain it in more detail, maybe if you can help me, I'll understand.

So, as you have lots of work, that implies you are not an exception, and as you are not an exception all Rumanian translators who translate into English are not an exception either, because they are great translators and are full of work. In fact they all (no exception in that) are better in translating into English, French, German, Spanish, or any language than an educated native in those languages. Would that be your idea?
Then why would it be that most market players recommend it should be the other way around?

On what real, verifiable, trustworthy basis do you claim an interpreter/translator is better than a translator only or interpreter only?
You must know that high-performance athletes to be able to deliver that high-performance need to be specialists, that is, they don't try to also be high-performing in football or skin-diving, because specialization and full dedication is what makes them high-performing? And that is not only true to athletes, it also happens in science, art, and many disciplines, including translation? Do you know any case of an athlete that achieved gold medals in very different disciplines? Not only common sense, or logic if you prefer, shows this is a fact but many authors, with a long history in translation practice, education and research support that claim. What can you show that proves they are all wrong?
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Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 20:27
Romanian to English
+ ...
You are right, too Aug 1, 2016

Yes, many Romanian translators are very good in the languages they are specialized. You take it as an absolute. It is not. I never mentioned that they are better than a native, educated translator. If you need to go from point A to point B, in your opinion you can do it only with a Bentley. Any other car is worthless, therefore a Volkswagen won't do it.

Keeping the same analogy, if Chile does not produce any car, Chilean people should not use any other cars built in other countries.
... See more
Yes, many Romanian translators are very good in the languages they are specialized. You take it as an absolute. It is not. I never mentioned that they are better than a native, educated translator. If you need to go from point A to point B, in your opinion you can do it only with a Bentley. Any other car is worthless, therefore a Volkswagen won't do it.

Keeping the same analogy, if Chile does not produce any car, Chilean people should not use any other cars built in other countries. In the US, there is no native translator able to translate from Romanian into English. What is better - no translation at all or a decent, although not excellent, translation done by a non-native?

Your analogy regarding sports, hit the wrong button. I was a swimming champion for Romania and I competed also at the national championship in 50 m pistol (finished 3rd). Again, you are not informed when you ask " Do you know any case of an athlete that achieved gold medals in very different discipline ?"

Yes, I know the following Olympic medalists:
- Christa Luding and Clara Hughes - cycling and speed skating
- Conn Findlay - rowing and sailing
- Lauryn Williams - bobsleight and track&field (100 m)
-Rebecca Romero - cycling and rowing
- R.Krause - handball and swimming , and the list can go on.

We should realize that we live very dynamic times when things tend to change rapidly. If we cling to old theories, concepts or customs and do not, or refuse to adapt to the new reality, then soon, we will be discarded.
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Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:27
German to English
+ ...
traductorchile - question Aug 1, 2016

I can't understand the situation, and am glad that I'm not alone because I was feeling stupid. Here is your first post.
traductorchile wrote:

A couple of months ago I published in "Pulse" and my website a letter I sent to the Minister of Works in Chile protesting against a ruling that provides unsupported privileges to a group of translators. In fact, the rules created oppose recommendations given by experts and current practices in the translation world, for example:
- The translator can be a non-native living in the non-native country (source of the text)
- The translator can be an interpreter accredited as such before the courts in Chile
- The translator can be an official non-native translator accredited in the non-native country
- The translator can belong to XXX translators' association (one association in particular)
- If the translator belongs to none of the above, the client must attest before a Notary Public that the client certifies that the translator is competent, and the client takes all responsibility for any mistake.

When I read this: "... the rules created oppose recommendations given by experts..." I cannot tell whether the list that follows is describing the recommendations given by experts, or is describing the rules. Could we start there? For example "- The translator can be a non-native living in the non-native country (source of the text)" - is it the "experts and common practices" that say the translator can be a non-native etc.? Or is it the Chilean officials who are saying this?

In regards to your links, I tried reading the second one. I got lost, because first of all everything starts with a question, and then everything refers to something I'm not familiar with.
Would you accept this ruling in your country if things were the other way around?

What is the ruling? Is the ruling the above list?


 
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Absurd Chilean ruling affecting translators







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