Aug 20, 2022 17:18
1 yr ago
35 viewers *
French term
relai par la prévoyance
French to English
Bus/Financial
Law (general)
This is a a report prepared by consultants for a managing director involved in some employees being transferred from one company to another, including himself. "CCN de l'immobilier" means collective agreement applicable within the property sector.
"CCN de l’immobilier (la Société)
Maintien de salaire par l’employeur
Pour tout salarié ayant a minima un an d’ancienneté :
Maintien de salaire à 100%, sans délai de carence :
pendant 45 jours pour les non-cadres
pendant 90 jours pour les cadres
Pour tout salarié ayant a minima un an d’ancienneté :
Maintien de salaire à 90%, sans délai de carence, pendant une durée définie selon l’ancienneté (de 30 jours à 190 jours) ;
Relai par la prévoyance
A partir du 45e/ 90e jour et jusqu’au 180e jour :
Maintien de salaire à 100%
A partir du 181e jour :
Maintien de salaire à 30%
A compter de la fin de la prise en charge par l’employeur (ou du 180e jour pour les salariés ayant moins d’un an d’ancienneté) :
Maintien de salaire à 60%
Garantie d’emploi
..."
The context (lines after) indicates the idea here. I in fact thought that relai was a spelling mistake but according to Wiktionary this is a legitimate "post-1990" spelling of relais. My stab at this might be something like "Continued benefits arrangements"... but I've often found the word relai(s) to be quite mysterious.
"CCN de l’immobilier (la Société)
Maintien de salaire par l’employeur
Pour tout salarié ayant a minima un an d’ancienneté :
Maintien de salaire à 100%, sans délai de carence :
pendant 45 jours pour les non-cadres
pendant 90 jours pour les cadres
Pour tout salarié ayant a minima un an d’ancienneté :
Maintien de salaire à 90%, sans délai de carence, pendant une durée définie selon l’ancienneté (de 30 jours à 190 jours) ;
Relai par la prévoyance
A partir du 45e/ 90e jour et jusqu’au 180e jour :
Maintien de salaire à 100%
A partir du 181e jour :
Maintien de salaire à 30%
A compter de la fin de la prise en charge par l’employeur (ou du 180e jour pour les salariés ayant moins d’un an d’ancienneté) :
Maintien de salaire à 60%
Garantie d’emploi
..."
The context (lines after) indicates the idea here. I in fact thought that relai was a spelling mistake but according to Wiktionary this is a legitimate "post-1990" spelling of relais. My stab at this might be something like "Continued benefits arrangements"... but I've often found the word relai(s) to be quite mysterious.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+1
1 day 17 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1355
Selected
Takeover of benefits arrangements
Best Practices for Handling Second Injury Fund Cases in New ...
https://loisllc.com › best-practices-for-handling-second-...
3 Oct 2016 — Due to the added complexity of the “takeover” of benefits at some point by the Fund, the Division has promulgated a special Order to be used ...
Understanding New Jersey's Second Injury Fund.
https://loisllc.com › understanding-new-jerseys-second-i...
4 Jan 2013 — Due to the added complexity of the “takeover” of benefits at some point by the Fund, the Division has promulgated a special Order to be used ...
https://loisllc.com › best-practices-for-handling-second-...
3 Oct 2016 — Due to the added complexity of the “takeover” of benefits at some point by the Fund, the Division has promulgated a special Order to be used ...
Understanding New Jersey's Second Injury Fund.
https://loisllc.com › understanding-new-jerseys-second-i...
4 Jan 2013 — Due to the added complexity of the “takeover” of benefits at some point by the Fund, the Division has promulgated a special Order to be used ...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Went with "extended benefits arrangements" in the end, but this helped clarify things"
+2
23 mins
Myriam Seers
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Specializes in field
Canada
Practising commercial lawyer
Native in: English (Variant: Canadian)
Works in: French to English, Italian to English, Portuguese to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
provident fund transition
"Prévoyance" is "provident fund":
https://www.charitydata.ca/charity/grandin-provident-fund-tr...
https://www.crpn.fr/je-suis-salarie/beneficier-de-la-prevoya...
https://www.swfinstitute.org/profile/598cdaa50124e9fd2d05ab1...
https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?l...
I think by "relais" ("relai" being either a typo or an alternative spelling as you note, Mpoma), they mean some sort of bridging or transition given the employees being transferred to a new company. So perhaps "provident fund transition".
I found "relais" near "prévoyance" in this document, in the context of drawing a "relais" between "prévoyance" and retirement, which appears consistent with the idea that it means a transition or bridge.
Hope this helps!
b. Pour la retraite
Si la personne malade ne sort pas indemne de cette période ? Pourra-t-elle liquider sa retraite ? Le relais entre la prévoyance et la retraite se fera-t-il ? Et pour quel montant ? Qu’en est-il si sa retraite est liquidée en l’état ? Qu’en est-il de la retraite complémentaire et de la réversion ?
Il faut savoir que plus de la moitié des retraites liquidées le sont après qu’un complément d’information ait été apporté par le futur retraité. Comment fait-on si l’on n’est plus en pleine possession de tous ses moyens ?
https://www.afigec.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/15_05_Des-...
https://www.charitydata.ca/charity/grandin-provident-fund-tr...
https://www.crpn.fr/je-suis-salarie/beneficier-de-la-prevoya...
https://www.swfinstitute.org/profile/598cdaa50124e9fd2d05ab1...
https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?l...
I think by "relais" ("relai" being either a typo or an alternative spelling as you note, Mpoma), they mean some sort of bridging or transition given the employees being transferred to a new company. So perhaps "provident fund transition".
I found "relais" near "prévoyance" in this document, in the context of drawing a "relais" between "prévoyance" and retirement, which appears consistent with the idea that it means a transition or bridge.
Hope this helps!
b. Pour la retraite
Si la personne malade ne sort pas indemne de cette période ? Pourra-t-elle liquider sa retraite ? Le relais entre la prévoyance et la retraite se fera-t-il ? Et pour quel montant ? Qu’en est-il si sa retraite est liquidée en l’état ? Qu’en est-il de la retraite complémentaire et de la réversion ?
Il faut savoir que plus de la moitié des retraites liquidées le sont après qu’un complément d’information ait été apporté par le futur retraité. Comment fait-on si l’on n’est plus en pleine possession de tous ses moyens ?
https://www.afigec.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/15_05_Des-...
Note from asker:
| Thanks. Seems a possibilty, but in fact I've come across "prévoyance" thousands of times, and it translates as many things. "Provident fund" might be a little too specifically North American. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: This is fine, not North American.
2 hrs
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| neutral |
Conor McAuley
: Your profile speaks for itself of course, but personally I don't like "transition" and I don't think it fits neatly into the text as provided. / "married to it"? I don't understand.
3 hrs
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haha I'm not married to it, yours could certainly be right too! As usual, it would be better to be able to question the author of the document, but alas, that's not (usually) the job. --- "not married to" = not committed to the opinion=UK "not wedded to"
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| agree |
FPC
2 days 12 hrs
|
+2
23 mins
Conor McAuley
France
France
Native in English
Specializes in field
France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, British, Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
210
When provident scheme/fund provisions are triggered
relai: take over, take up the baton, literally, I suppose
prévoyance: provident fund (insurance coverage for various eventualities)
The word "prévoyance" can be a nasty little word to translate into English. See previous answers here on ProZ:
https://www.proz.com/search/?term=prévoyance&from=fra&to=eng...
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Note added at 32 mins (2022-08-20 17:51:29 GMT)
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It's strange the way we have these blind spots with certain words, you with "relai", me a little bit with "prévoyance"...the latter covers (or can cover) such a wide range of things, from life assurance to salary guarantees following employee transfers evidently, since that is the case here.
A little question: are the employees being "reassigned" within a group of companies, or are they being kind of "hired out"?
Is the initial employer company in trouble/got out of business?
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Note added at 39 mins (2022-08-20 17:58:34 GMT)
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correction: has it GONE out of business?
The French word for "reassignment" in this context isn't coming to me right now, but I think you have enough as regards this question.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2022-08-20 19:37:52 GMT)
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1. Prendre le relais de quelqu'un dans un travail, une occupation, une action : Relayer un camarade fatigué. 2. Substituer à quelque chose quelque chose d'autre, qui lui succède : Relayer l'activité syndicale par un mouvement politique.
relayer, se relayer - Dictionnaire de français Larousse
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/relayer/67869...
Initially a sport-related expression:
"Lors d'une course de relais, prendre la suite d'un équipier."
You could also use "when the Xyz provisions come/enter into force/come into effect" as a time marker. I'm not 100% happy with "trigger", but it works.
Also: https://www.wordreference.com/fren/prendre le relais de
Thanks for the extra info.
prévoyance: provident fund (insurance coverage for various eventualities)
The word "prévoyance" can be a nasty little word to translate into English. See previous answers here on ProZ:
https://www.proz.com/search/?term=prévoyance&from=fra&to=eng...
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Note added at 32 mins (2022-08-20 17:51:29 GMT)
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It's strange the way we have these blind spots with certain words, you with "relai", me a little bit with "prévoyance"...the latter covers (or can cover) such a wide range of things, from life assurance to salary guarantees following employee transfers evidently, since that is the case here.
A little question: are the employees being "reassigned" within a group of companies, or are they being kind of "hired out"?
Is the initial employer company in trouble/got out of business?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2022-08-20 17:58:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
correction: has it GONE out of business?
The French word for "reassignment" in this context isn't coming to me right now, but I think you have enough as regards this question.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2022-08-20 19:37:52 GMT)
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1. Prendre le relais de quelqu'un dans un travail, une occupation, une action : Relayer un camarade fatigué. 2. Substituer à quelque chose quelque chose d'autre, qui lui succède : Relayer l'activité syndicale par un mouvement politique.
relayer, se relayer - Dictionnaire de français Larousse
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/relayer/67869...
Initially a sport-related expression:
"Lors d'une course de relais, prendre la suite d'un équipier."
You could also use "when the Xyz provisions come/enter into force/come into effect" as a time marker. I'm not 100% happy with "trigger", but it works.
Also: https://www.wordreference.com/fren/prendre le relais de
Thanks for the extra info.
Note from asker:
| Thanks. Yes, "prévoyance" and "relais" in the same little expression ... nasty stuff. |
| The employees are being reassigned. I don't know the reason precisely (probably M&A shenanigans), but there's no particular suggestion of anyone in difficulties. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: The text below the heading does seem to describe "trigger" events - and "relai" suggests that the Provident Fund "takes over" the payment of benefits after 45 days; it's a "descriptive" heading though, and not a translation
1 hr
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Thanks Chris!
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| agree |
Anastasia Kalantzi
2 days 1 hr
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29 mins
Unemployment (private) insurance provisions
Prévoyance is a general term for insurance as in insuring against adverse events affecting the person and espcially their ability to work. So it' s contract needed to make provisions for the future. Although its general meaning can be applied to social security scheles it's more oten used for plans subscribed with a private insurer.
the idea in your text, if I get it right, is that to start with the company will cover the loss of salary but then the insurance policy kicks in and takes over. In my translation I can't be sure whether it refers to a state funded or private (my guess) schemes. I'd call them "benefitts" if it was public scheme.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-08-20 21:15:14 GMT)
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As I read again the text and thought about it, in fact I think that unemployment may not be the big issue in this case. There seems to be in the agreement a "garantie d'emploi" (but that's just a snippet of a sentence).
Anyhow, while such insurance as "prevoyance" may also include the event of becoming unemployed , perhaps it's better to frame the thing in more general terms as others suggested , as it's unlikely that it would be exclusively about the risk of being laid off (in fact I' sure it's a more comprehensive package).
the idea in your text, if I get it right, is that to start with the company will cover the loss of salary but then the insurance policy kicks in and takes over. In my translation I can't be sure whether it refers to a state funded or private (my guess) schemes. I'd call them "benefitts" if it was public scheme.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2022-08-20 21:15:14 GMT)
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As I read again the text and thought about it, in fact I think that unemployment may not be the big issue in this case. There seems to be in the agreement a "garantie d'emploi" (but that's just a snippet of a sentence).
Anyhow, while such insurance as "prevoyance" may also include the event of becoming unemployed , perhaps it's better to frame the thing in more general terms as others suggested , as it's unlikely that it would be exclusively about the risk of being laid off (in fact I' sure it's a more comprehensive package).
Reference:
Note from asker:
| Thanks, yes, also plausible. But what role does the word "relai" play in the expression? |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Can't see how or if you have translated "relai"
47 mins
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Indeed I didn't, as to me it's implicit in the text. After a certain period the "prevoyance" takes over. Anyway "unemployment" may not be the risk as it says below "Garantie d'emploi". "Relai" is the handover/switching from one scheme to another
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Discussion
Handy for payslips, I seem to remember.
The terms "insurance benefits" and "assurance benefits" are used, that's what provident schemes provide ("provident benefits" is less used, based on search match results.
Both the employer and the employee pay into provident schemes was what I concluded from my research.
Agree about "prévoyance".
The argument against is that "benefits" connotes a State scheme, and that's debatable.
Apologies, I failed to show in the excerpt that this was actually a section in a table where the "terms" applicable in 2 types of collective agreement are in fact compared.
So one is saying "Maintien de salaire à 100%, sans délai de carence..." and the other is saying "Maintien de salaire à 90%, sans délai de carence...". The first then says "A partir du 45e/ 90e jour ...".
So my interpretation is that the normal Soc. Sec. arrangements provide cover until the 45th (or 90th day) ... and from that point forward some other arrangement kicks in, as somehow arranged by the first collective agreement. While for the other one the equivalent arrangement is "A compter de la fin de la prise en charge par l’employeur...".
"Provident fund" might still be appropriate: I really don't know. I think there is some doubt how they're using prévoyance here...
https://www.abebooks.fr/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30743239143...
In your case it's not a matter of a top-up scheme for mediacl expenses, but of a a different type of risk, although it can be underwritten often by the same insueres or mutalités, part of a general insurance policy or separately as far as I know.
Anyway the bottom line to me is, as far as your question is concerned: a "contrat de prévoyance" , that is a specific insurance scheme/policy intended to that effect, will be 'handed over' the people (technically the payment in consideration of their service or employment status) after a certain period of time (initally they will have been under other provisions, paid by the employer at differetn rates accordinf to their seniority and status). RELAI ~ HANDOVER for me.
I don't know if that makes sense according to your document.
You can't know this, but in this document there is no suggestion of anyone no longer having "steady" employment here: part of the technical question dealt with in the text is whether the contracts can simply be transferred from one company to the new one, whether the same collective agreement will apply, or whether it must be a different one, whether the employees' consent is required for this transfer, or whether they have the right to refuse the transfer itself, etc.
There is no mention or suggestion of transferring to a state of even temporary uncertainty.
https://www.lafinancepourtous.com/pratique/vie-perso/sante-h...
AS FOR the question, my understanding is it's about a process to manage some major change in the professional situation of people working in the real estate sector. What Is being translated are articles of the agreement that goversns certain aspects of this process, namely the transition from regular steady employment (hence regular payslip issued by the employer) and a state un (temporary) uncertainty. They stipulate that after x time the people will be paid as per the provisions of one of those insurance policy generally known as "prévoyance".
Not available.
I have it as an e-book.
The search function is kind of clunky. Just ask.
NB note that they are talking there about "caisse de prévoyance", not prévoyance tout court
@Allegro
Your suggestion "takeover of benefits arrangements" works pretty well for me. It does actually seem to fit the French expression and crucially the following contextual lines.
But perhaps legalspeak is too "high" a register for "relai", so something more informal is appropriate.
The real issue is WHY the provident fund provisions are required, but again, we're not asked to explain why, just to translate the words in question. Perhaps the unspoken context is "in the event of sickness"....?
In this case I think it's used to mean protection against loss of revenue ALSO from unemployment or temporary inability of the employer(s) to pay (whatever the reason), because that's what the Collective agreement for the real estate/property sector provides, as the French workplace is regulated by both legislation (code) and industry agreements (contrats collectifs de branche). Other insurance policies called "prévoyance" don't include that protection against it.
See also https://www.harmonie-mutuelle.fr/entrepreneurs/vos-salaries-...
"Social Security and Related Matters: French to English Glossary", terminology, Council of Europe:
"PREVOYANCE
caisse / fonds de prévoyance (sociale)
provident / contingency / welfare fund [...]"
That's fairly conclusive for me: I would go with "provident fund".
The dictionary is from the same "family" as FHS Bridges, it's really reliable.
French social security is a minefield for English-speakers...
First, the terms in English and in French encompass a wide range of things, as previously concluded.
Second, my gut tells me that a provident scheme is private-run, not State-run.
But I'm wrong (although the reference refers to pensions only):
"A *provident fund* is a retirement fund run by the government. They are generally compulsory, often through taxes, and are funded by both employer and employee contributions.
Provident Fund vs. Pension Fund: What's the Difference?
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102814/what-are-mai...
More to follow hopefully.
Elsewhere in this text we see "Un tableau d’analyse détaillé est joint à la présente note (annexe n°1). Les points essentiels y sont comparés et synthétisés (conclusion et rupture du contrat de travail, congés exceptionnels pour évènements familiaux, durée du travail, maladie, prévoyance…)."
To me this suggests a commonplace "blanket" expression making reference to this "hinterland" of benefits and allowances, not necessarily a specific institution or company. But I'd be happy to be corrected.