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места постоянного пребывания людей
доверенность на ребёнка

Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

незнание языка

English translation:

caused by having no command of Georgian (language) / by non-acquaintance with Georgian (language)

Added to glossary by Vitaly Kisin
Jan 9, 2007 17:41
17 yrs ago
Russian term

незнание языка

Russian to English Social Sciences General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters interethnic conflicts
Не поможете ли подобрать существительное для "незнания" во фразах типа "проблемы/настороженность/враждебность, вызванные незнанием грузинского/etc/ языка национальными меньшинствами". I have a feeling that `ignorance of a language', or `inability to communicate in a language' each have a narrow sense and that I need some sort of `un-knowledge'. I'd love to come up with something like what I. Azimov invented with nowhen, anywhen etc. Thanks in advance
Proposed translations (English)
3 caused by having no command of Georgian (language) / by non-acquaintance with Georgian (language)
3 +13 можно перестроить фразу
4 +5 lack of language skills
3 +5 language barrier
4 +2 inability to speak the language
4 failure to communicate in Georgian
5 -1 hardly speak any Georgian...
4 -1 [due to] lack of [Georgian among]
4 -1 deficiency in language
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Alla Tatyants

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Discussion

Vitali Stanisheuski Jan 14, 2007:
Как насчет lack of knowledge of Georgian (language)? Все же не спорное skills и ближе к оригиналу.
Kirill Semenov Jan 10, 2007:
Всякому стилю - место, но тут не стиль, а псевдостиль. Имхо, научный стиль не исключает простое, живое (глагольное) и понятное изложение. А нейтивы тут тоже поучаствовали. ;)
Vitaly Kisin (asker) Jan 10, 2007:
Кирилл, это перебор. Всякому стилю есть место в соответствующем контексте. В данном случае существительное помогло бы добавить тексту лаконизма. Жалко, что не отозвались native speakers with Anglo-Saxon names... like Jack D. for example
Kirill Semenov Jan 10, 2007:
Как по мне, "незнание языка нац. меньшинствами" - это не академический, это бюрократический. Просто наши учёные привыкли писать жуткими конструкциями, чтобы раздувать объём и звучать "значительно". Сам диссер написал, знаю. :)
Vitaly Kisin (asker) Jan 10, 2007:
существительное In a way, you answered my question by not finding a proper noun (inability to speak may imply ability to write). My text - its style is quite academic - is already full of these roundabout phrases but sometimes it begs a noun. Too bad
Kirill Semenov Jan 9, 2007:
Ларисе: Потому что Семёнов всегда не прав ;)
Larissa Boutrimova Jan 9, 2007:
Владимиру Дубисскому: Любопытно, почему “they don’t” implies “they must (but don’t)”?

Proposed translations

4 days
Selected

caused by having no command of Georgian (language) / by non-acquaintance with Georgian (language)

Поискал варианты к "владению языком", нашел command of a language и "acquaintance with a language" и сделал обратные версии, соответствующие невладению, т.е. незнанию:

caused by having no command of Georgian (language)
caused by non-acquaintance with Georgian (language)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2007-01-14 08:33:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

кстати non-acquaintance также переводится как "незнание", "незнакомство"
Something went wrong...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Vitali, I'llbe able to use this somewhere in the text; alas, the noun I needed with this plain meaning was not offered - does not exist. Each other version has a specific and undesirable overtone"
+13
3 mins

можно перестроить фразу

А зачем следовать дословно оригиналу? Можно перестроить как-нибудь, например, "(caused by the fact that) the ethnic minorities do not speak/know Georgian".
Peer comment(s):
agree Sergei Tumanov
7 mins
neutral Anton Konashenok : your variant will somewhat erode the theme-rheme relationship in the phrase ;; Приезжайте в Чехию - быстро проникнетесь прелестью глагола как самой продуктивной части речи :-))
9 mins
Я бы и по-русски писал "не знают". Отглагольные существительные ужасны, их тут легко можно избежать, ещё и страдательный залог зачем-то. + Так и в русском глаголы всегда лучше. Насчет "темы-ремы" я, кстати, не понял.
agree Henry Schroeder : I would also rephase it. Anything resembling the original will sound terrible in English, and not just the незнание but also the национальными...
22 mins
And the source itself is far from good style in Russian
agree Larissa Boutrimova : Я бы тоже не стала усложнять - "because they don’t speak the language". Keep it simple :)
27 mins
ага, `KISS principle'. :)
agree GaryG : I would use "inability to speak" in most contexts; "cluelessness" явно не подходит :-)
1 hr
doesn't "inability to speak" sounds as if "being mute"? (or should I say "verbally handicapped"?)
agree Vanessa Fuller : if the source text is lacking, then i would say rewrite/phrase as necessary.
2 hrs
the grammar of the source is OK, but the style is rather bureaucratic
agree Vladimir Lioukaikine (X) : За перестройку - do not/cannot speak the language.
3 hrs
agree Valery Kaminski
4 hrs
agree Sophia Hundt (X) : seems like a good solution.
8 hrs
agree Irina Romanova-Wasike : я тоже придерживаюсь принципа KISS, зачем искать подспудный смысл там где все более или менее однозначно?
13 hrs
Чтобы звучало "внушительнее". ;-) Громоздкие отглагольные сущ-ные и страд. залоги - типичный канцелярит.
agree Konstantin Kisin : restructuring the sentence is often the best way ;)
18 hrs
В данном случае - в обоих языках ;)
agree Anastasia Novoselova
20 hrs
agree Olga B
1 day 5 hrs
agree tanyazst
1 day 17 hrs
Something went wrong...
+5
11 mins

lack of language skills

quite neutral and generalized, I think
Peer comment(s):
agree Anton Agafonov (X)
11 mins
agree Alexander Onishko
24 mins
agree Vladimir Dubisskiy : indeed.."lack of XYZ language skills". Because if one puts "they don't speak" it implies smth like "they must (but don't)" which is incorrect.
25 mins
Thanks. Precisely my point.
neutral Mikhail Kropotov : This is just wrong. Everyone has language skills -- in his or her language.
32 mins
Please see Vladimir's comment: "lack of Georgian language skills" or the like
agree Tevah_Trans : hostility/animosity caused by the language barrier between Georgians and national minorities
45 mins
agree Alexander Demyanov
1 hr
neutral Vladimir Lioukaikine (X) : lack of language skills presupposes that a person knows the language already and it's just that certain skills are missing (writing skills, speaking, listening)
3 hrs
agree Olga Cartlidge : (to Vladimir Lioukakine) : Lack of language skills does not imply anything other than zero language skills and is perfectly OK to use here.
6 hrs
disagree Konstantin Kisin : This is wrong for the reasons stated by Mikhail and Vladimir Lioukaikine. Dubisskiy's explanation is also wrong - it does not imply "must".
17 hrs
Something went wrong...
+5
16 mins

language barrier

hostility caused by the Georgian-language barrier experienced by the national minorities
Peer comment(s):
agree koundelev
4 mins
Thank you, George
agree novjak
14 mins
Thank you, novjak
agree Anton Konashenok
18 mins
Thank you, Anton
neutral Mikhail Kropotov : A language barrier cannot be attributed to a single language. It has to separate several things. // see A.D.'s comment
28 mins
Could you be a little more precise? Exactly what several things does it have to separate?
agree Alexander Demyanov : just "language barrier", not "xxx-language barrier"
56 mins
Thank you, Alexander
neutral Larissa Boutrimova : Language barrier, по-моему, здесь не пойдет, просто потому, что в исходнике другое. Да хотя бы сделать обратный перевод ... "Незнание языка" и "языковой барьер" - не одно и то же. Одно - причина, другое - следствие. + А к точности? :)
9 hrs
Моя любовь к подстрочнику находится в зачаточном состоянии ))
agree Zamira B.
11 hrs
Thank you, Zamira
Something went wrong...
4 hrs

failure to communicate in Georgian

Vitaly, just for the heck of it, google "failure to communicate". Maybe you'll find it useful and fit for different phrases.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Konstantin Kisin : Sounds like they can speak Georgian but for some sinister reason "fail" to do so...would you agree?
13 hrs
Неи, Костя, не согласна. Failure is not an option. Я поэтому и предложила пошуровать и посмотреть, в каких контекстах это употребляется.
Something went wrong...
-1
12 hrs

[due to] lack of [Georgian among]

based on the model "lack of English among" googled.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Konstantin Kisin : sorry but this is not English
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

deficiency in language

animousity caused by their deficiency in Georgian language

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2007-01-10 12:19:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another example at http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/gfcpolicymanual/content.cfm?I...
A non-English speaking student with no equivalence for English 30 upon admission must make up this deficiency by successfully completing the examination of Level III of English as a Second Language offered by the Faculty of Extension.
Example sentence:

...reported some deficiency in English... (phrase taken from the web)

Peer comment(s):
disagree Konstantin Kisin : sorry but this is not English// You do realise that the document you cite makes completely different use of the sentence you put forward, don't you?
16 hrs
If you mean that my phrase does not sound like proper English, see an example of an official document at: http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/gfcpolicymanual/content.cfm?I...
Something went wrong...
+2
5 hrs

inability to speak the language


To his initial disgust, he spends the day listening to students who, for the most part, are cheerfully aware of their inability to speak the language. ...
www.iol.ie/~galfilm/filmwest/34mercier.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

... despite their inability to speak the language (13000 Ingrian Finns have already migrated to Finland, with another 7000 expecting to follow). ...
www.unpo.org/member_profile.php?id=26 - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Research - News Centre: Getting to the core of migration
The Fare (Family Reunification Evaluation) project stresses that the inability to speak the language is a major handicap for access to employment but that ...
ec.europa.eu/research/ news-centre/en/soc/03-02-soc01.html - 39k -

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2007-01-10 13:40:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

when one asks:

do you speak english?

it normally implies - do you understand english? can you communicate in english?
'speak' assumes generic meaning of 'communicate'
therefore, i stand by my 'speak'
Peer comment(s):
agree Karen Sughyan
8 hrs
agree Anastasia Novoselova
14 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
12 hrs

hardly speak any Georgian...

ethnic minorities(can)hardly speak the local language and get into all sorts of trouble/are marginalized for that

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day15 hrs (2007-01-11 08:44:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The only nouns we may have left: incompetence/limitations in(both oral and written), lack of/their lacking any/both oral and writing skills, limited/virtually non-existent vocabulary, being their second language/a foreign language to them, poor/negligible/next to none/hardly any language skills, being unfamiliar with/strange to, failure to speak or write/to get a school education in/to have visited a...school. The asker has his work cut out for him
Peer comment(s):
disagree Konstantin Kisin : hardly speak any and незнание are very different in meaning
5 hrs
Something went wrong...
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