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frais de <<depaletisa>>
This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Feb 14, 2014 10:26
10 yrs ago
5 viewers *
French term

dépôt / déposé

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
From a museum catalogue:

Portrait de Louis XV le Bien Aimé en armure (1710-1774),
vers 1745-1747
Huile sur toile
Inv. 872.7 (dépôt du musée du Louvre, Paris)

[...] ce tableau, déposé en 1872 par le musée du Louvre [...]

I would usually have read this as "on loan from" but if they've had it since 1872 I'm not sure if that fits. Is there another way of rendering this I wonder?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts...
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 registered/deposited
3 +1 held-in-trust/accessioned
3 in the storage areas of the Louvre

Discussion

Philip Taylor (asker) Feb 26, 2014:
Yes, it's in Bourg-en-Bresse. I often leave out such details for reasons of customer confidentiality, then find that others do some research and post the details anyway! But I still really appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I've opted for "entrusted by" as I think this gives the meaning in a suitably broad way, though there may well be a better and more "official" English-language equivalent. Those consulting this page in future can have a look through the discussions and decide for themselves. Sincere thanks to everyone who answered and/or commented, much appreciated as always.
Josephine Cassar Feb 14, 2014:
Not really acquired but the state took possession of everything after the French revolution, as otherwise, it would have lost all its patrimony-national heritage. It did not belong to the state-requisitioned, sequestrated from among the looting
Christopher Crockett Feb 14, 2014:
well, the text tells us that it was acquired by the Louvre (sometime before 1872), was given an accession number and, unless it was deaccessioned, it still (legally) belongs to the Louvre; but has been exhibited at Brou in Bourg-en-Bresse since 1872. That's my minimalist reading of it.
philgoddard Feb 14, 2014:
Yes, exactly, it sounds like a permanent loan. But let's wait and see what the asker says.
Christopher Crockett Feb 14, 2014:
my reading, phil, is that it *still* belongs to the Louvre and is just "on loan" to B-e-B, to be displayed at Brou (a really, really beautiful place, btw).

The Louvre has probably got stuff "on loan" to provincial museums all over France --in practice, on permanent loan, since warehouse space in the Paris area is kinda expensive.
philgoddard Feb 14, 2014:
I think the painting originally belonged to the Louvre, which deposited it at the Brou monastery in Bourg-en-Bresse. But I'd be grateful if the asker would confirm this.
Christopher Crockett Feb 14, 2014:
warehouses in 1872 My point about the "warehouses" of the Louvre (and the Met, and every other large museum) is that they are necessary to store the "overflow" of objects which the institution acquires --as gifts, or as a result of archeological digs, or whatever-- which are judged to be "second rate," meaning that they are not "first rate" and deserving of taking up the limited public exhibition space available in the museum itself. That's a judgement call.

I remember first going to the Louvre in 1967 and seeing the *vast* number of glass cases *filled* with Greek pots --hundreds and hundreds of them, it seemed. I had no idea so many Greek pots had even survived. When I went back on a visit in the mid-80s, there were no longer these huge cases full of pots, only a few dozen (at most) to be seen, in individual plastic boxes on pedestals. Tastes in exhibition practice change (not always for the best), and the exhibition of such massive quantities of objects definitely became passé. Where did all the pots go? Into the Louvre's warehouses, out of public view.

Loaning "secondary" works out to provincial museums is a practical (and good) alternative to warehousing.
Josephine Cassar Feb 14, 2014:
Don't forget that this was after the French revolution when palaces were pillaged-it led to the beginning of conservation/restoration philosophy when the French realised they were losing such a great patrimony through pillaging and started the process of cataloguing-there wouldn't have been warehouses then
Christopher Crockett Feb 14, 2014:
dépôt = warehouse? I'm still thinking that the description we have here follows the standard formula for works of art:

Title
Date
Material
Location

The Inv.[entaire] number is [1]872.7 (i.e., the seventh item acquired that year); and the present location is not in the public exhibition areas of the Louvre, but in the "dépôt" of the Louvre, i.e., not on public display there.
philgoddard Feb 14, 2014:
egunn Could you confirm where this painting is?
Josephine Cassar Feb 14, 2014:
I understood it to mean as Christopher said-acquired & then registered as it would have to be

Proposed translations

+1
25 mins

registered/deposited

Seems to fit your case; reference: http://en.pons.com/translate?q=dépôt&l=enfr&in=&lf=fr
Peer comment(s):
neutral writeaway : look at the context. It's more revealing than a dictionary. /it is clear but it's real museum-speak. Not my field but I checked the Met.
1 min
Than, why don't you provide an answer? It is not clear
neutral philgoddard : I believe your second answer is correct, but you need to provide better references and/or explanation. You can do this by looking up the painting concerned.//It's by Maurice Quentin de la Tour.
2 hrs
Thank you; it does not say by whom, Philgoddard; there were many. I would have looked up the artist or the painting, otherwise; yes de la Tour and probably(?) this one:http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/maurice-quentin-de-la-tour/p...
agree Christopher Crockett : Déposé = a juridical term, an official claim of ownership; "Cataloged" = assignment of an acquisition number, a description, etc. Even as late as 1879, loved for the Louises was limited. The painting was in the Louvre collection, only "on loan" to B-en-B.
4 hrs
Thank you, why not catalogued, even if not in that period? I would imagine they would bring out such a painting, seeing it is their glorious past/king whom they had loved
Something went wrong...
+1
2 hrs

held-in-trust/accessioned

it is formally accessioned through a Deed of Gift
Example sentence:

Copy of permit for held-in-trust objects or collections.

Reference:

http://www.uaf.edu/museum/collections/ethno/policies/acquisitions/

Peer comment(s):
agree writeaway : this should put Asker on the right track. http://fineart.about.com/od/Glossary_A/g/Accession.htm
20 mins
Thank you writeaway !
neutral philgoddard : It definitely doesn't mean accessioned.
36 mins
accessioned was for "déposé"
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

in the storage areas of the Louvre

Perversely, I'm thinking that "dépôt" might be referring to the *location* of the object in the Louvre collection.

The objects on public display constitute only a small fraction of the holdings of any large museum --the Louvre has warehouses full of stuff (probably all over the country), which might constitute it's "dépôt" (as in the "dépôt lapidaire" associated with a building, which is the repository of stone debris associated with the building).

otOh, "déposé en 1872" does suggest to me that this was the year that it was acquire by the museum (sorry, PhilG).

Why "déposé...*par* le musée du Louvre" rather than, say, "en" might be due to the fact that the meaning of "déposé" has to do with some special, juridical meaning of the word, just as "marque déposé" means something as our copyright is "registered" (as Josephine suggests) --the sense is that it was not only acquired in 1872, but also officially inscribed among the list of monuments belonging to the State.

Just guessing.

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Note added at 4 hrs (2014-02-14 14:27:25 GMT)
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In any case, I don't think that "on loan from" what is being said here --though that might be true, depending upon the larger context of your quote.

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Note added at 5 hrs (2014-02-14 16:00:54 GMT)
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Ahhh..... the actual painting is now in Bourg-en-Bresse,

http://fr.rhonealpes-tourisme.com/18361/lumieres-sur-le-18em...

"Portrait de Louis XV le Bien Aimé en armure" **on loan** from the warehouse collection (dépôt) of the Louvre --a common practice of large national museums, to loan out their secondary works to regional collections, rather than store them in a warehouse somewhere, away from public view.

Legally, the painting still belongs to the Louvre.

The "déposé en 1872 *par* le Louvre" refers to the year in which the Louvre lent it to the Bourge-en-Bresse museum.

Context, Context, Context.

Has anyone on kudoz ever mentioned that Context might be important?

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Note added at 5 hrs (2014-02-14 16:06:48 GMT)
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If your job, egunn, is to translate that site for the town of Bourg-en-Bresse, I'd just say "on loan from the Louvre since 1872," without worrying about where the Louvre might put it if it ever went back to Paris.

So, your initial thought (benefiting from a knowledge of the Context) was correct.

But I still think that "warehouse" is the sense of "dépôt."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2014-02-14 16:14:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I'm wrong.

"dépôt" = Josephine's "deposited" = Verginia's "held in trust" = my "on loan from"

Naturally, I prefer my terminology, it being good musée-speak.
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : Your first answer was wrong. I think it would have been a courtesy to acknowledge that your second answer is based on my research.
9 hrs
Earth-2-Phil: google "Portrait de Louis XV le Bien Aimé en armure " => http://fr.rhonealpes-tourisme.com/18361/lumieres-sur-le-18em... I have the courtesy to suggest that you Take a Breath. And, maybe even enter an answer.
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