Wendy Lewin (asker) Oct 14, 2014:

Good morning guys - what a great debate! I agree with your comment Björn on using different translations - not sure the customer will agree. Ramey - the sentence before transparency talks about being able to make the frame really narrow and inconspicuous allowing the glazed area to be bigger

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 14, 2014:

@Björn Thanks for the Schweinerei! My nerves are fine, thank-you, the storm has passed.

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 14, 2014:

Good Morning WML could you give us the sentence preceding your term question to better understand 'transparency'? What does the 'So' (thus) refer to?
'Thus/Hereby we create/grant you a perfectly lucid and comfortable environment. Automatically regulated ventilation and moisture levels provide an optimal indoor climate. Your well-being is our top priority.'

I would not refer to multiple adjectives as inconsistent! Good Marketing texts are not, contrary to popular belief, gormless.

Björn Vrooman Oct 14, 2014:

PS Here, Ramey - so you have something to wake up to (this time, a UK link the other way around, as "discomfort"):
"In London, it was found that increased thermal discomfort is likely to be a major problem for many existing buildings unless they are adapted for the changing climate."
http://www.ukcip.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/PDFs/Beating_he...

And now something hilarious to calm down your nerves (I thought so at least):
"Ventilation systems are intended to provide optimum living conditions for pigs. A well-managed, functioning, efficient ventilation system effectively draws fresh air into a building and removes stale air containing a proportion of microbes, dust, harmful gases and water vapour. Inefficient ventilation is detrimental to pig and staff performance (particularly on hot days) and costs more to run."

Oh my, why did they have to put pig + staff in one sentence :)

Wish you all a nice day!

PS: Dunno what Ramey thinks, but I wouldn't use "optimise" - that sounds really technical to me.

Björn Vrooman Oct 14, 2014:

Now, even if I go out on a limb here now (I can already hear the screams of the native-speaker faction):

A) I'd prefer "indoor" over "interior" (See this book here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ph-pS1fE4PgC&printsec=fro... - calling it "Interior Environment Handbook" instead of "indoor" would look pretty odd to me).

B) I'd prefer "comfort levels" over "comfort", unless it's part of a fixed expression which clearly relates to temperature/humidity/air flow.

3) I'd prefer adjectives over nouns, whenever possible.

"indoor comfort", as Michael suggested, seems fine for the US: http://www.bostonuniqueindoorcomfort.com/

In the UK, I don't know. You have this one here:
"Not only will you experience indoor comfort like never before, you’ll also be running a highly responsive, low carbon system which blends into any décor, allowing for beauty and innovation all in one installation."
http://ingenious-air.co.uk/for-your-home/

They also use Ramey's "climate":
"Although home is where the heart is, we believe no home is complete until you have the perfect indoor climate."

Björn Vrooman Oct 14, 2014:

Using the most appropriate rendering in a given context can certainly not be called inconsistent :) If we became mere human dictionaries, choosing the same word in every instance regardless of context, it would rather beg the question: Why don't you just use MT?

On a side note, I was able to come up with the following (HVAC controls):

"EnviroVent offer a range of whole house and single room heat recovery ventilation systems, all designed to provide a healthy, energy efficient and comfortable all year round environment."
http://www.envirovent.com/home-ventilation/products/heat-rec...

"Every one of our HVAC controls is created with one thought in mind – to keep people comfortable. No matter if you’re responsible for a commercial building, a school or a hospital, Johnson Controls will help you create and maintain a comfortable indoor environment. We understand the technical complexity of HVAC systems and the difficulty of managing and optimizing HVAC performance."
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/content/us/en/products/buildi...

Thus, I'd rather read a well-localized text which includes some adjectives.

Wendy Lewin (asker) Oct 13, 2014:

It is UK English and the transparency does concern windows and lighting - I am currently tempted to translate it in different ways in different sentences (using your suggestions) and will then be slated for inconsistency! ;)

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

Yes, that is a more technical (or a bureaucrat's) term. I am probably too "tainted" by working in the renewables industry - texts there are studded with the word "thermal" (thermal envelope, thermal comfort, thermal efficiency...).

On a side note, asker said "comfort on its own is not really good enough" - so right now, I see your answer as the only one standing out.

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 13, 2014:

That's fine for BE but it's also more of a technical/engineering term according to your text. This is Marketing, though we haven't determined which English variety is called for.

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

@Ramey I know, even though I don't think it has anything to do with Google this time:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/temperature/thermal/

There is even a "Thermal Comfort Grant" available in the UK:
http://www.stedmundsbury.gov.uk/environment/private-sector-h...

Or:
"This guidance document aims to assist local authorities in the development of
more specific design briefing documents for internal environmental conditions in
schools, namely thermal comfort, acoustics, indoor air quality (IAQ) and lighting."
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/resource/doc/167966/0046205.pdf

Blame the government :)

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 13, 2014:

@Björn Please don't take my tirade personally. Although you were the catalyst, my wrath is directed toward the term itself and how its misuse - the gift of google - has become a matter of course, as is the case with many created terms, diluting language in general. (Yes, Andrew, dangle, dangle)

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

@Ramey I said "somewhere between". And my original suggestion was "personal comfort".

I looked up Transparenz and it seems to me that it does refer to light sources (whichever those may be).

In addition, don't fault me for it (=thermal comfort)! It seems to be a UK (or CA) term that I can hardly find on US pages.

PS: I did say twice below that I like how you phrased it.

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 13, 2014:

Thermal comfort? Get out the long Johns! This is one of the most inelegant terms I know of and really must have been created by a liguistic bozo. SORRY, but such words are perhaps appropriate for a technical text, but have no business whatsoever in a marketing text.
In the Eco-Market, you will find countless references to 'climate'.
The 'transparency' I thought to be referring to a clearly structured ventilation/moisture system. But of course, when it is referring to LIGHT, then I'd have to rework my suggestion.

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

Thus,... ...I stand corrected: "thermal comfort" may be too inclusive (also clothing).

But somewhere between Ramey's "climate" and "thermal comfort" seems appropriate.

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

Actually,... ...the first sentence could be read as referring to light coming in and the thermal comfort of the room:
"Transparenz und Raumkomfort."

From my second link below:
"To have 'thermal comfort' means that a person wearing a normal amount of clothing feels neither too cold nor too warm. Thermal comfort is important both for one's well-being and for productivity. It can be achieved only when the air temperature, humidity and air movement are within the specified range often referred to as the 'comfort zone'."

From the third:
"The influencing conditions of thermal comfort are as follows [...]:
• Activity level
• Clothing
• Room Temperature
• Air velocity
• Turbulence intensity
• Air humidity in room
• Air quality, hygienic
• Sound level
• Light intensity

Unfortunately it is impossible to create a thermal indoor climate where everybody is satisfied, since everyone's perception to temperature is different and therefore have different conceptions of what it means to by thermally satisfied; based on practical data it is generally recognised that for a perfect building scenario it is not possible to have less than 5% of occupants dissatisfied."

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 13, 2014:

Thanks WML So is the accent is on how well the ventilation is regulated, presumably with automated opening and closing, as well as shading and unshading the transparent surfaces?

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

To make it clear: I wasn't advocating for throwing the word "comfort" out the window. I only thought it may be helpful to see how Germans usually use a word such as "Raumkomfort". At least in my view, German ads stick to a more "impersonal" attitude - much as Germans use "man" in a lot of sentences.

Wendy Lewin (asker) Oct 13, 2014:

Hi Ramey, it is a marketing text by a manufacturer of window and door hardware and building and ventilation technology

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

@WML I liked Ramey's suggestion of using "comfortable" as an adjective here (just wasn't sure about "transparency").

I was referring to something such as the following:
"And, most immediate to personal comfort, should the average indoor temperature of British houses continue to rise, stay roughly the same at 17.5C (63.5F), or fall?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12606943

"Personal comfort preferences, and the technologies available for meeting them, will also determine how much the demand for artificial cooling is likely to grow between now and 2050, particularly given rising temperatures due to climate change"
http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/research/energy/downloads/40house/ch...

"It is also recognised that personal comfort can depend on building design and room layout, for example the relationship between desk and heat source locations or windows."
http://www.environment.admin.cam.ac.uk/files/uoc_thermal_com...

Or similar here:
"Improved comfort and satisfaction: Homes built to the Code will enhance the comfort and satisfaction of tenants."
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/code_for_sust_homes...

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 13, 2014:

Hi WML does the text make any further references to how the moisture and ventilation are regulated. This sounds vaguely likean eco-house, possibly with a geothermal heating and ventilation system, or maybe an adobe house, etc.

Wendy Lewin (asker) Oct 13, 2014:

Thanks for all your thoughts - personal comfort is moving in the direction of convenience, which may also fit in somehow?

Björn Vrooman Oct 13, 2014:

@WML In contrast to one of the answerers, "Raumkomfort" is not just "blabla" in my opinion. I'd usually talk about "comfort levels" here, not just comfort, although there is the term "thermal comfort" without "levels":

http://www.hse.gov.uk/humanfactors/topics/lighting.htm
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/thermal_comfort.h...
http://www.feta.co.uk/uploaded_images/files/CBCA TFS 001 The...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

[Edit] Probably too broad however. On a side note, "Transparenz" should mean "light/ing" here (see above).

I suggest using "personal comfort (levels/preferences)". Relate it to the people who live in the apartment, not to the room. The German actually means Komfort des Raumes -> den Komfort, den der Raum den in ihm lebenden Personen bietet.

Best wishes