Aug 12, 2018 11:07
5 yrs ago
11 viewers *
French term
dépens, liquidés à l'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
from a Belgian court judgment
La demanderesse demande au tribunal de...condamner la partie défenderesse aux dépens, liquidés à l'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée.
The plaintiff asks the court to order the defendant to pay costs... is it that the procedural costs should be set at a fixed sum by the court but not the legal costs? Is there an elegant way to express this in English?
The plaintiff asks the court to order the defendant to pay costs... is it that the procedural costs should be set at a fixed sum by the court but not the legal costs? Is there an elegant way to express this in English?
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Aug 12, 2018 22:46: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "dépens, liquidés à l\\\'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée" to "dépens, liquidés à l\'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée "
Proposed translations
+1
1 day 9 hrs
French term (edited):
dépens, liquidés à l\'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée
Selected
costs fixed at the procedural indemnity rate, which is variable
All is explained here:
http://www.droitbelge.be/news_detail.asp?id=864
It's "variable" because there are specified minima and maxima and the Judge has discretion to fix the actual sum.
http://www.droitbelge.be/news_detail.asp?id=864
It's "variable" because there are specified minima and maxima and the Judge has discretion to fix the actual sum.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Daryo
: .... , which is yet to be determined / not yet determined - you are still skirting around the exact meaning of "liquidée"
3 hrs
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...to be determined would work
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agree |
writeaway
: clear-gets the meaning across. to be determined would work well
5 days
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Yes 'to be determined' is good courtspeak
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-1
2 hrs
French term (edited):
dépens, liquidés à l\'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée
costs, paid at the standard "procedural indemnity" amount, which itself may vary.
The "l'indemnité de procédure" cost is the amount paid to the winning party to cover their attorney costs only. The judge fixes the amount based on certain factors, such as the ability of the other party to pay etc.
Therefore I would translate it as "costs, paid at the standard "procedural indemnity" amount, which itself may vary."
References
"L'indemnité de procédure est une somme d'argent payée par la partie qui a perdu le procès, destinée à couvrir une partie des frais d'avocat de la partie qui a gagné. Elle doit être demandée au juge, qui en fixe le montant selon certains critères prévus par la loi, tels que l'enjeu de la demande, la capacité financière de la partie qui doit la payer, la complexité de l'affaire, etc. En matière de sécurité sociale, l'indemnité de procédure est forfaitaire. " https://www.droitsquotidiens.be/fr/lexique/indemnite-de-proc...
"The Belgian Judicial Code expressly recognises the "loser pays" principle, under which the unsuccessful party must cover the costs of the proceedings. Therefore, court costs are usually borne by the unsuccessful party.
Attorneys' fees are paid as a flat-rate indemnity (rechtsplegingsvergoeding/indemnité de procédure). The amount of the indemnity depends on the type and importance of the claim. The court can deviate from the standard indemnity on a party's reasoned request, but must comply with the minimum and maximum amounts set in a royal decree. For example, for a claim valued between EUR100,000 and EUR250,000, the standard indemnity for attorneys' fees is EUR6,000. The court can reduce this amount to a minimum of EUR1,200, or increase it up to a maximum of EUR12,000. In its assessment, the court can take into account the following factors:
Financial capacity of the unsuccessful party (to reduce the amount of the indemnity).
Complexity of the case.
Contractual compensation awarded to the successful party.
Obviously unreasonable nature of the situation." https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transi...
Therefore I would translate it as "costs, paid at the standard "procedural indemnity" amount, which itself may vary."
References
"L'indemnité de procédure est une somme d'argent payée par la partie qui a perdu le procès, destinée à couvrir une partie des frais d'avocat de la partie qui a gagné. Elle doit être demandée au juge, qui en fixe le montant selon certains critères prévus par la loi, tels que l'enjeu de la demande, la capacité financière de la partie qui doit la payer, la complexité de l'affaire, etc. En matière de sécurité sociale, l'indemnité de procédure est forfaitaire. " https://www.droitsquotidiens.be/fr/lexique/indemnite-de-proc...
"The Belgian Judicial Code expressly recognises the "loser pays" principle, under which the unsuccessful party must cover the costs of the proceedings. Therefore, court costs are usually borne by the unsuccessful party.
Attorneys' fees are paid as a flat-rate indemnity (rechtsplegingsvergoeding/indemnité de procédure). The amount of the indemnity depends on the type and importance of the claim. The court can deviate from the standard indemnity on a party's reasoned request, but must comply with the minimum and maximum amounts set in a royal decree. For example, for a claim valued between EUR100,000 and EUR250,000, the standard indemnity for attorneys' fees is EUR6,000. The court can reduce this amount to a minimum of EUR1,200, or increase it up to a maximum of EUR12,000. In its assessment, the court can take into account the following factors:
Financial capacity of the unsuccessful party (to reduce the amount of the indemnity).
Complexity of the case.
Contractual compensation awarded to the successful party.
Obviously unreasonable nature of the situation." https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transi...
-2
1 day 13 hrs
French term (edited):
condamner ... aux dépens, liquidés à l'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée
... to pay costs, determined as including only the "procedural indemnity", itself not yet determined
condamner ... aux dépens, liquidés à l'indemnité de procédure, elle-même non liquidée
=
to condemn (the other party) to pay [our] costs, [to be] determined as including only the "procedural indemnity", [the amount of] which [= "l'indemnité de procédure "] is yet to be determined
... aux dépens, = condemned to pay costs
liquidés à l'indemnité de procédure, = [costs being] determined as (including only) "l'indemnité de procédure / the "procedural indemnity" [implied: nothing else is to be included - no lawyers fees, no experts fees, nothing else]
elle-même non liquidée = [the amount of] which [= "l'indemnité de procédure "] is yet to be determined
CL5 about the meaning, some other wording is not excluded.
see refs.
=
to condemn (the other party) to pay [our] costs, [to be] determined as including only the "procedural indemnity", [the amount of] which [= "l'indemnité de procédure "] is yet to be determined
... aux dépens, = condemned to pay costs
liquidés à l'indemnité de procédure, = [costs being] determined as (including only) "l'indemnité de procédure / the "procedural indemnity" [implied: nothing else is to be included - no lawyers fees, no experts fees, nothing else]
elle-même non liquidée = [the amount of] which [= "l'indemnité de procédure "] is yet to be determined
CL5 about the meaning, some other wording is not excluded.
see refs.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
GILLES MEUNIER
: les explications ne sont pas convaincantes
1 day 4 hrs
|
disagree |
writeaway
: not so sure an English target audience will understand. Too convoluted -very unclear/I am sure that an English target audience will most definitely not make heads or tails of this
5 days
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I'm sure the target audience will perfectly understand all the nuances of meaning ...
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: too convoluted
5 days
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so for the sake of "nice and easy reading" of a legal text you would just dump bits that annoy you? sure, one possible method, but not mine ....// I was on the [mistaken?] impression that the accuracy of a legal text is of primordial importance?
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Reference comments
22 hrs
Reference:
Costs in Belgian courts
Asker, you would do well to study some of the material relating to hoe costs are dealt with in Belgium. The following references should help you;
Fees, charges and guarantees - Barreau de Bruxelles
www.barreaudebruxelles.info/index.php/en/individuals/fees-c...
1 Dec 2014 - What do lawyers' fees and charges represent Legal aid How does the lawyer calculate his fees ? Are there additional ... representation before the courts, tribunals and other bodies. ... In Belgium, no scale is imposed. Fees are ...
Belgium - Allen & Overy
www.allenovery.com/.../Litigation_Dispute_Resolution_in_Bel...
1.5 What are the costs of civil court proceedings in. Belgium? Who bears these costs? Are there any rules on costs budgeting? Costs for civil proceedings in ...
CJEU judgment reshuffles litigation costs in Belgium - Lexology
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=26705e0d-8e92...
3 Oct 2017 - According to case law of the Court of Cassation (the highest judicial instance in Belgium) such costs were recoverable only in the event of a ...
Costs of proceedings - Belgium - european e-justice
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_costs_of_proceedings-37-...
10 Dec 2015 - Court costs are fixed in Belgium. Costs vary depending on the court before which the proceedings are brought and the stage of the proceedings ...
Fees, charges and guarantees - Barreau de Bruxelles
www.barreaudebruxelles.info/index.php/en/individuals/fees-c...
1 Dec 2014 - What do lawyers' fees and charges represent Legal aid How does the lawyer calculate his fees ? Are there additional ... representation before the courts, tribunals and other bodies. ... In Belgium, no scale is imposed. Fees are ...
Belgium - Allen & Overy
www.allenovery.com/.../Litigation_Dispute_Resolution_in_Bel...
1.5 What are the costs of civil court proceedings in. Belgium? Who bears these costs? Are there any rules on costs budgeting? Costs for civil proceedings in ...
CJEU judgment reshuffles litigation costs in Belgium - Lexology
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=26705e0d-8e92...
3 Oct 2017 - According to case law of the Court of Cassation (the highest judicial instance in Belgium) such costs were recoverable only in the event of a ...
Costs of proceedings - Belgium - european e-justice
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_costs_of_proceedings-37-...
10 Dec 2015 - Court costs are fixed in Belgium. Costs vary depending on the court before which the proceedings are brought and the stage of the proceedings ...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Daryo
: certainly useful, but here the concept of "dette liquide" / "un montant liquidé" needs also to be clarified. // http://www.allenovery.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Litigation...
5 hrs
|
1 day 13 hrs
Reference:
Liquide (créance)
Liquide (créance)
Le créancier muni d'un titre exécutoire constatant une créance liquide et exigible peut en poursuivre l'exécution forcée sur les biens de son débiteur : la créance est liquide lorsqu'elle est évaluée en argent ou lorsque le titre contient tous les éléments permettant son évaluation (2e Civ. - 19 novembre 2008, N° de pourvoi : 07-18987, BICC n°699 du 1er avril 2009 et Jurifrance).
Lorsqu'une juridiction prononce la condamnation du débiteur au paiement d'une somme d'argent déterminée qui faisait l'objet de l'instance, on dit qu'elle "liquide" la créance
Voir les mors : Astreinte, "Condition", "Délai de grâce", "Mise en demeure" , "Terme" , et Entreprises (Sauvegarde des -).
https://www.juritravail.com/lexique/liquide-creance.html
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Note added at 1 day 13 hrs (2018-08-14 01:04:53 GMT)
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une créance liquide = we know the exact amount or we have all the elements to determine the exact amount.
Le créancier muni d'un titre exécutoire constatant une créance liquide et exigible peut en poursuivre l'exécution forcée sur les biens de son débiteur : la créance est liquide lorsqu'elle est évaluée en argent ou lorsque le titre contient tous les éléments permettant son évaluation (2e Civ. - 19 novembre 2008, N° de pourvoi : 07-18987, BICC n°699 du 1er avril 2009 et Jurifrance).
Lorsqu'une juridiction prononce la condamnation du débiteur au paiement d'une somme d'argent déterminée qui faisait l'objet de l'instance, on dit qu'elle "liquide" la créance
Voir les mors : Astreinte, "Condition", "Délai de grâce", "Mise en demeure" , "Terme" , et Entreprises (Sauvegarde des -).
https://www.juritravail.com/lexique/liquide-creance.html
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 13 hrs (2018-08-14 01:04:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
une créance liquide = we know the exact amount or we have all the elements to determine the exact amount.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
AllegroTrans
: OK but look at the regs and you see it's an amount between an upper and lower limit so it only becomes 'fixed'' when the judge makes a decision
5 days
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"it only becomes 'fixed'' when the judge makes a decision" exactly, that why it's said that "le juge liquide la créance."
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Discussion
See the following link where these are set out in detail. It's pointless playing about with words without understanding the initial concept.
http://www.droitbelge.be/news_detail.asp?id=864