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ingénieur en stabilité
Jun 18, 2020 08:58
3 yrs ago
51 viewers *
French term

qu’en vue et lors

COVID-19 FVA French to English Law/Patents Law: Contract(s)
les conditions ... ne s’appliquent qu’en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial

Okay so my initial translation is the conditions apply only on conclusion (signature) of the initial (or first) contract. But that leaves out 'en vue'.

Is this something like prior to and on conclusion of the contract?
Thanks for your help
Proposed translations (English)
4 +2 [...] will apply only at the time of and for the purpose of entering into the initial contract
5 -1 with a view to and during
3 in relation to and upon signing [conclusion] of
3 only with a view to the initial contract when entered into
3 -3 only apply in sight and at the time

Discussion

Daryo Jun 19, 2020:
@ SafeTex you seem to be confused because I inverted the order in which these two conditions are enumerated.

As Asker confirmed that what was quoted as "les conditions" is in fact in the ST "les règles", these "rules" are applicable only if both of these conditions are satisfied:

(1) - "en vue de" => these "rules" apply only to the procedure for entering into the contract, for the purpose of the "negotiating of the contract" (but not to the content of the contract itself)
(2) - "lors de" => these "rules" apply only at the time of agreeing the contract (after that these "rules" are irrelevant)

If samples from the Web are anything to go by, it's very likely that these "rules" are from the "Distance Selling Regulations" - it would make perfect sense if whatever they are selling they are selling on the Web (or over the phone). Even if it's about some different set of "rules" it wouldn't change the translation, but usually it helps when you are sure what's the whole story about ...
Tony M Jun 19, 2020:
@ Asker I fear your revised proposed translation still misses the point — as well as being clunky and awkward in EN, not to say grammatically incorrect.

"...the rules apply to and on conclusion of the first contract and to automatically renewed (renewable) contracts..."

You appear to have created an 'and...and...' construction, common in FR but not used in EN; the word order here requires the reader to realize that 'to' and 'of' both refer to 'conclusion', but because the collocation 'apply to' is so strong, it overwhelms the sense you are seeking of just 'apply' tout court. In any case, I think you have weakened both the structure and the sense of the phrase overall.
SafeTex Jun 19, 2020:
@ Tony (and Daryo) Hello Tony
okay noted and thanks
the answers become so complicated at times that you can lose track of things
Tony M Jun 19, 2020:
@ S/T I think you are misquoting Daryo, who simply suggested "...at the time of and for the purpose of ..." — with just an inversion of the 2 expressions to help it read better in EN
SafeTex Jun 19, 2020:
@ Daryo and all Hello

You took the time to look up the term and that was a great help

But I don't think "en vue de" (dictionary: with the intention of) is really "at the time of"

The rules apply BEFORE the signing of the contract (and "for the purpose of" as you rightly said)

I think the first part should perhaps be "with the intent of/in anticipation of/prior to " (the signing of the contract) or something like that.
Mark Lewis (asker) Jun 19, 2020:
Thank you everybody for your contributions. For more context ..

conformement à l'article L... les règles ... ne s’appliquent qu’au premier contrat, pour les contrats à durée déterminée suivis d’autres contrats de même nature, sous condition que pas plus d’1 an ne se soit écoulé entre deux contrats ;

ne s’appliquent qu’en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial, pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.

so the rules apply to the first contract, on conclusion of the first contract. 'Something' applies to subsequent automatically renewed contracts. I think the phrase might be buggy, but I tend to go with

'the rules apply to and on conclusion of the first contract and to automatically renewed (renewable) contracts'
Daryo Jun 19, 2020:
the texte makes perfect sense and there is no "ambiguity" whatsoever - when you have a fuller context.

@Asker: what's the point of not quoting THE WHOLE SENTENCE when it's a bog standard clause found in THOUSANDS of contracts?

Can't see any "confidentiality" issues in doing so ... OTOH given the widespread propensity not to look further than what's immediately available, you would get far less "out of context" wild guesses - as then it would be clear that "les conditions" in this ST are NOT "conditions" contained in the contract itself but "conditions" that are part of the law that applies to certain types of contracts.
SafeTex Jun 18, 2020:
@ TM Hello TM

"when the contract/agreement is signed"

But doesn't that maintain the very ambiguity we are trying to solve.?

Does this mean "from the moment of signing and onwards" ?

or

During the signing itself?
AllegroTrans Jun 18, 2020:
@ TM Yes, and for this text I think we might say simply 'when' i.e. when the contract/agreement is signed
Tony M Jun 18, 2020:
@ S/T I think your point is based on a common misconception: 'lors' does not mean 'during' (that's 'pendant' or 'durant') — it actually means, in essence, 'at the time of' (think of other expressions like 'alors', 'lorsque', etc.)

Now it sometimes happens that the translation we end up using turns out to be 'during' — because in EN we don't have one single, neat term for 'at the time of'! But it's crucial to not lose sight of that underlying meaning: so it does not have the sense of a finite ending that 'during' so often conveys in EN
SafeTex Jun 18, 2020:
@ all Hello

It almost sounds like a protocol as "lors" (during signing) suggests that the conditions will no longer apply after signing !?!?!?
So I think Phil is absolutely right to ask for more context before making a difficult line call.
philgoddard Jun 18, 2020:
Until such time as?
More context would help - is this a framework contract? What are the conditions they're referring to?
AllegroTrans Jun 18, 2020:
'prior to and on conclusion' sounds like a contradictin
Tony M Jun 18, 2020:
@ Asker Surely it's 'en vue de...' + 'lors de ...' — and I'd have assumed that might mean 'in the light of...'? (and then the sense of 'at the time of...')

And of course, they both also relate to '...la conclusion du contrat initial'!

Proposed translations

+2
17 hrs
French term (edited): [certaines conditions] ne s'appliquent qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial
Selected

[...] will apply only at the time of and for the purpose of entering into the initial contract

missing context:

this a part of a bog standard / boilerplate clause found in the wording of thousands of contracts published in the searchable Web (and probably even more in the non-searchable Web and outside the Web!):

[certaines conditions] ne s'appliquent qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial, pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.

One sample, THIS being the original text:

Page 10:

9/ Faculté de renonciation
....
Il est précisé que les règles applicables en matière de vente à distance ne s’appliquent :
- qu’au premier contrat, pour les contrats à durée déterminée suivis d'opérations successives ou d'une série d'opérations distinctes, de même nature, échelonnées dans le temps ;
- qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.

https://www.acs-ami.com/files/pdf/AHIA-Assistance-RC-IB-fr.p... page

so the part
[... les règles applicables en matière de vente à distance ne s’appliquent]
...
- qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.

would be:

- [distance selling rules will apply only] at the time of and for the purpose of entering into the initial contract, for contracts renewable by tacit reconduction.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2020-06-19 04:13:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

point of method:

try https://www.google.com/search?q="qu'en vue et lors"

and you will find that ALL search resuts include

qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial

and most of them go to add

qu'en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial pour les contrats renouvelables par tacite reconduction.

Also, if you think of it, anything that would apply "lors de la conclusion du contrat" can not be IN the contract itself (as a contract can not apply before it's even agreed) so these "conditions" must be "outside of the contract", like in some rules (laws) applicable to the contract.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2020-06-19 12:09:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"en vue et lors de la conclusion du contrat initial"

can be expanded in two separate clauses:

- en vue de la conclusion du contrat initial => for the purpose of (entering into the initial contract)
+
- lors de la conclusion du contrat initial => at the time of (entering into the initial contract)

You could stick to the same order in EN i.e. "... for the purpose of and at the time of ..."

It seemed to me that this order sounds more logical: "... at the time of and for the purpose of ...", but using one or the other makes no difference regarding the meaning.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 3 hrs (2020-06-19 12:55:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


faire A "en vue de" B = B est l'objectif / le but de l'action A
Note from asker:
This seems to make logical sense. 'en vue' is then not so much a time construct but for the purpose of. Thanks
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
2 hrs
Thanks!
neutral Adrian MM. : No disagree as unclear what the 'tenor' - NB the copyworthy term - of the conditions is, but you have reversed the chronology & literally put the cart before the horse. Routinely, conditions are triggered by the contract made and not the other way round.
13 hrs
these two "conditions" to apply some special rules regarding how contracts are entered into (NOT about the content of the contract itself) must be met BOTH AT THE SAME TIME so the order in which they are enounced doesn't really matter.
agree Eliza Hall
2 days 17 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "First validated answer (validated by peer agreement)"
2 hrs

in relation to and upon signing [conclusion] of

I would understand this to mean that the T&Cs only apply to this contract, and obv only when the contract is executed. presumably just trying to exclude the scope being extended to previous or future contracts.
Note from asker:
that sounds about right ..
Peer comment(s):
agree Eliza Hall
4 hrs
disagree Daryo : very roughly that, but wrong explanation - the missing context (that should have been given by Asker) can be found - it's not about the content of the contract itself (T&C ...) but about legal dispostions applicable to the contract.
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
7 hrs

with a view to and during

I found the French and English version of the same contract (see both web references below)
Example sentence:

- only with a view to and during signing of the initial contract for contracts that are renewable by tacit renewal.

Reference:

https://www.acs-ami.com/files/pdf/AHIA-Assistance-RC-IB-fr.pdf

https://www.acs-ami.com/files/pdf/AHIA-Assistance-RC-IB-en.pdf

Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : a contract takes effect when it signed not during the signing: I think you have misunderstood 'lors de'
4 hrs
disagree Daryo : this is a bog standard formulation found in thousands and thousands of contracts - I very much doubt that the sample you found is "THE" contract from this ST. The EN version of it is mostly OK, except few bits, like the one about "DURING the signing "
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
7 hrs

only with a view to the initial contract when entered into

alos: /with a view *of* and upon making the orginal agreement/ - UK Solicitors prefer a non-binding agreement to a binding contract.

Note that the UK Partnerhip Act 1890 refers to carrying on business with a view *of* and not to profit - the archaic wording possibly refelcting the ambiguity in this case.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 jour 49 minutes (2020-06-19 09:48:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ha, ha - good 'view of profit' question: UK judges, lawyers and law students have been asking that question since 1890. The Aussies have merely changed the wording to 'with a view to' - a questionable move that, as I know from UK co. & partnership law exams, will come in for a deduction of one point. https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/partnership NB the idea is to make a profit in the future, but the Beatles' pop group or band had been considered - in retrospect and on dissolution - to have been an 'informal partnership'. IMO, UK and US property speculators who set up publicity-shy partnerships tp claim tax breaks and VAT clawbacks /e.g. on restoration of run-down properties/ are acting 'with a view of gain' and strictly 'not with a view to profit.'
Example sentence:

UK Partnership Act 1Persons carrying on a business in common with a view *of* profit This is an essential part of there being a partnership. If persons are not carrying on a business in common, or are not doing so with a view *of* profit ..

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/10255019-en-vue-de-with-a-view-to

Note from asker:
But what does with a view of profit mean? Does it mean that you're making profit or that you are likely to make profit?
Peer comment(s):
agree GILLES MEUNIER
12 hrs
Merci encore une fois and woof, woof,,,,
disagree Daryo : unfortunately these references have nothing to do with the ST - avoiding this kind of situation is the whole point of having an unmuous context ... I don't need to "lift" anything from anyone - I answer ONLY when I can understand the question on my own.
19 hrs
Best stick to your 'own' answer that lifts my idea of entry into the contract. // You have pinched my idea of entered into as it postdates my own answer and has never been used before on ProZ as a translation for conclusion.
Something went wrong...
-3
11 hrs

only apply in sight and at the time

"The conditions ... only apply 'in sight and at the time' of conclusion of the initial contract ...

"Les conditions ... ne s'appliquent qu'en vue et lors' de la conclusion du contrat inital."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 9 hrs (2020-06-19 18:02:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The only information given is a statement which says that the conditions only apply in sight and at the time of conclusion of the initial contract. A contract of employment would be signed at the beginning of the term of work. The statement is about conditions which only apply towards (in sight of) and at the time of conclusion (end or closure) of the first term of the initial contract. This is without any other information.
Note from asker:
I thought there was this notion of prior to, or up to and then on completion. but this doesn't seem to make sense because a contract is applicable only on signature.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Complete nonsense in EN, bears no relation to the meaning of the s/t
5 mins
disagree AllegroTrans : agree with TM; "apply in sight" makes no sense
1 hr
If "in sight" is too unusual, then better said "Conditions only apply in view of (or in anticipation or preparation) of)
disagree Daryo : "at the time of" makes sense, but "apply in sight" ???
6 hrs
neutral SafeTex : You got it right in your reply to AllegroTrans. This is how you need to think Lisa BEFORE posting as we don't want to be unkind, but nearly all of your posts are meaningless in English
14 hrs
Something went wrong...
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