Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

reales de vellón

English translation:

reales de vellón (copper reals)

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
Oct 2, 2018 16:29
5 yrs ago
6 viewers *
Spanish term

reales de vellón

Spanish to English Other Tourism & Travel guía de sitios
Término que aparece en la descripción de una ruta:

"Esta ruta nos lleva a un tradicional conjunto de molinos que muestra la explotación intensiva de un río como fuente de energía. Ya aparecen mencionados en el Catastro de Ensenada, elaborado en 1752, en el que se explica que eran utilizados durante nueve meses al año, con un rendimiento que, en la mayoría de ellos se estimaba en sesenta y tres ***reales de vellón***"

¿Alguna sugerencia?

¡Gracias!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 reales de vellón (copper reals)
Change log

Oct 4, 2018 12:16: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

Charles Davis Oct 3, 2018:
@bigedsenior Yes and no. "Vellón" is a substance, officially an alloy (in practice, from the seventeenth century onwards, pure copper), but the question of quantity comes in because of the so-called "premio": since both reales de plata and reales de vellón were in circulation, there was, in effect, an exchange rate: they had different monetary values.
bigedsenior Oct 3, 2018:
This has nothing to do with any quantity. See Beatriz ref. post below.
Vellón is a coin of copper/silver alloy; the more copper, the lower the value, debasing the coin. Wikipedia has it wrong.
Carol Gullidge Oct 2, 2018:
@ Asker: what has your own research thrown up so far?

Proposed translations

+3
15 hrs
Selected

reales de vellón (copper reals)

In theory, vellón is an alloy of copper and silver, as the first DLE definition cited by Bea indicates:
"Aleación de plata y cobre con que se labró moneda antiguamente"

In English it is called "billon", derived from French:

"billon. An alloy formerly used for coinage, containing gold or silver with a predominating amount of copper or other base metal."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/billon

Up to the end of the sixteenth century, Spanish vellón coinage did indeed contain some silver along with copper, though as silver became more scarce it was reduced to a very small amount; by 1591, it was as little as 0.35%:
https://books.google.es/books?id=WsSlZqEvTZ0C&pg=PA143&lpg=P...

However, before the end of Philip II's reign, the minting of vellón coinage consisting of pure copper with no silver at all was already contemplated. An order was issued on 31 December 1596 to mint coins in copper "sin que lleve ni se le eche ninguna liga de plata", and although this was rescinded a month later, soon afterwards coins which continued to be called vellón but were actually pure copper, with no silver at all, began to be minted in huge quantities; Philip III's Real Cédula of 3 June 1602 ordered that "la moneda de vellón que en adelante se labrase fuera sin mezcla ni liga de plata y de la mitad de la agora corre". From then on, apart from a period in the later seventeenth century when they went back to minting in copper-silver alloy, vellón was in practice pure copper, although the old name was retained.
"Al principio, por no haber demasiada moneda fraccionaria, el vellón se encajó bien. Pero ya no era vellón, sino cobre"
"La modesta moneda, primero, de vellón, después, de cobre sólo (aunque comunmente llamada vellón) [...]"
For full details, see pp. 50-61 here:
Manuel Vilaplana Persiva, Historia del real de a ocho
https://books.google.es/books?id=SGNJPtOQvgQC&pg=PA50#v=onep...

By the time the first Spanish Royal Academy appeared in 1726-39, vellón was defined simply as "la moneda de cobre Provincial de Castilla", and so it remained in later editions; the definition was "moneda usual de cobre", and the meaning of vellón as an alloy for coinage was not even included until 1899, and then with the definition "liga de plata y cobre, con que se labró moneda antiguamente" (my emphasis): i.e., a long time ago, not recently.

It is not surprising, then, that in nineteenth-century English sources "reales de vellón" were called "copper reals": that is what they actually were:

"At Bilboa, Madrid and Malaga, accounts are kept in reals vellon, or copper reals of 34 maravedis."
The Shipmaster's Assistant and Commercial Digest (1837)
https://books.google.es/books?id=QzhkAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA392&lpg=P...

In the light of all this, although I myself have translated "reales de vellón" as "billon reals" in the past, I think it would be better to call them "copper reals". The fact that they continued to be called vellón officially might justify using "billon", but since they were actually pure copper (after the sixteenth century) we might as well say so. "Billon" is a very unfamiliar word in English, familiar only to specialists and unsuitable in a tourism text. Readers would be quite likely to think it might be a typo for "billion". "Copper" is much more easily understood, and also accurate.

I would in any case prefer to retain the Spanish term (which would go in italics in English), and then add "copper reals" in parentheses. As for "reals", you can either use this form, with an English plural, or retain "reales" in the Spanish form (preferably in italics). You find both.
Peer comment(s):

agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
7 mins
Gracias, y saludos, Bea :-)
agree Jessica Noyes
4 hrs
Thanks, Jessica :-)
agree Marie Wilson : Never too late! Just come in handy, I knew it sounded familiar!
322 days
Thanks, Marie. I'm very glad!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks a lot for all the information about this term. It has been really helpful. I followed your advice with the Spanish term in italics and the translation in parentheses. I think it is the best solution."

Reference comments

9 mins
Reference:

billon reals

Spanish colonial real - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_colonial_real
The silver real (Spanish: real de plata) was the currency of the Spanish colonies in America and the Philippines. In the seventeenth century the silver real was established at two billon reals (reales de vellón) or sixty-eight maravedís. Gold escudos (worth 16 reales) were also issued.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Taña Dalglish : Post it Carol as an answer. reales de vellón [billon real]. https://www.coleccionbbva.com/en/.../2359-320-reales-2/
53 mins
agree Andrea Shah
1 hr
agree Charles Davis : This is strictly accurate, but I think it would be better to call them copper reals, for reasons explained above.
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 hrs
Reference:

vellón

vellón
1. m. Aleación de plata y cobre con que se labró moneda antiguamente.
2. m. Moneda de cobre que se usó en lugar de la fabricada con aleación de plata.

real de vellón
1. m. Moneda de plata, del valor de 34 maravedís, que equivalía a 25 céntimos de peseta.
http://dle.rae.es/?id=bUQNnkU|bUTAQVU

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2018-10-03 07:38:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

moneda de vellón
1. f. moneda acuñada de plata y cobre en proporciones variables y solo de cobre desde el reinado de Felipe V.
http://dle.rae.es/?id=PdNuKTo
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree bigedsenior : Yes. It has nothing to do with any quantity. 'vellón' (SP) = 'bilon' (FR) = copper/silver alloy (EN)
9 hrs
agree Charles Davis : Muy oportuna la definición de "moneda de vellón"; no se me había ocurrido buscarla.
10 hrs
Something went wrong...
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search