Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
brave a fine
English answer:
bravely face having to pay a fine
Added to glossary by
Charles Davis
Jan 20, 2012 11:01
12 yrs ago
English term
brave a fine
English
Art/Literary
History
Venetian history
From an essay on a Renaissance tomb:
At the end of his principate, Mocenigo ***braved a fine*** of 1,000 ducats in order to solicit the rebuilding of the west wing of the Ducal Palace, a proposal whose ready acceptance was undoubtedly furthered by Mocenigo’s financial contribution.
Does "brave" mean "pay"? Mocenigo was a doge, and the context doesn't mention why he should have paid a fine.
Thanks for any help
f
At the end of his principate, Mocenigo ***braved a fine*** of 1,000 ducats in order to solicit the rebuilding of the west wing of the Ducal Palace, a proposal whose ready acceptance was undoubtedly furthered by Mocenigo’s financial contribution.
Does "brave" mean "pay"? Mocenigo was a doge, and the context doesn't mention why he should have paid a fine.
Thanks for any help
f
Responses
4 +3 | bravely face having to pay a fine | Charles Davis |
4 +8 | risked a fine (and most likely paid it) | Jenni Lukac (X) |
3 +1 | take the risk that he might incur a fine | Carol Gullidge |
Change log
Jan 24, 2012 10:25: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Responses
+3
2 hrs
Selected
bravely face having to pay a fine
It has been suggested to me that I should present my discussion comments as an answer.
In principle, to "brave" a fine could imply facing the risk of paying a fine, if the imposition of the fine is not certain. However, in principle the meaning of "brave" as a verb is to face or endure something unpleasant in a brave manner, undaunted, without fear:
"endure or face (unpleasant conditions or behavior) without showing fear"
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/brave?region=us&q=b...
"to dare or defy ⇒ "to brave the odds "
to confront with resolution or courage ⇒ "to brave the storm""
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/brave
"to face or endure with courage"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brave
In this case, the source text leaves open the possibility of risk: that the fine may or may not have been imposed. Without further context, that is what I would have assumed. But thanks to Colin's research we know that Mocenigo knew he would have to pay if he did this, and accepted the obligation fearlessly.
The other source I quoted in the discussion reveals that the fine was imposed by an "ancient Law" forbidding anyone from suggesting making any change to the Doge's palace. The law imposing the fine was not a recent development and did not foresee the circumstances that had arisen. It is not that Venice was determined not to repair the damage that had occurred and to punish anyone who suggested doing so. It is simply the old ancestral Venetian determination to preserve their city and make sure no-one ever altered it in the future, added, perhaps, to a sense of invulnerability; the ancient Venetian legislators were not trying to prevent restoration, merely alteration; they presumably did not foresee that restoration of this kind would ever be necessary: that anyone would successfully attack the city. At any rate, everyone in Venice clearly must have known that Mocenigo would have to pay the fine if he went ahead, which he willingly did. A thousand ducats was a huge sum, but then you had to be fabulously wealthy to be the Doge.
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Note added at 1 day1 hr (2012-01-21 12:30:03 GMT)
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My comments in the last paragraph about the reasons behind this fine may well be incorrect; I based them on the mention of an "ancient law" in the source I quoted previously. However, E. V. Lucas gives a different account of this episode, in which the imposition of a fine on those advocating rebuilding the Palace is attributed to the need to avoid expense at a time of war, especially against Genoa:
"The next Ducal tomb is the imposing one of the illustrious Tommaso Mocenigo (1413-1423) who succeeded Steno and brought really great qualities to his office. Had his counsels been followed the whole history of Venice might have changed, for he was firm against the Republic's land campaigns, holding that she had territory enough and should concentrate on sea power: a sound and sagacious policy which found its principal opponent in Francesco Foscari, Mocenigo's successor, and its justification years later in the calamitous League of Cambray, to which I have referred elsewhere. Mocenigo was not only wise for Venice abroad, but at home too. A fine of a thousand ducats had been fixed as the punishment of anyone who, in those days of expenses connected with so many campaigns, chiefly against the Genoese, dared to mention the rebuilding or beautifying of the Ducal Palace. But Mocenigo was not to be deterred, and rising in his place with his thousand ducat penalty in his hand, he urged with such force upon the Council the necessity of rebuilding that he carried his point, and the lovely building much as we now know it was begun. That was in 1422. In 1423 Mocenigo died, his last words being a warning against the election of Foscari as his successor. But Foscari was elected, and the downfall of Venice dates from that moment."
E. V. Lucas, A Wanderer in Venice (New York: Macmillan, 1914), pp. 260–61.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16705/16705-h/16705-h.htm
The interpretation of the phrase remains the same, however; what Mocenigo chose to do made the fine inevitable.
In principle, to "brave" a fine could imply facing the risk of paying a fine, if the imposition of the fine is not certain. However, in principle the meaning of "brave" as a verb is to face or endure something unpleasant in a brave manner, undaunted, without fear:
"endure or face (unpleasant conditions or behavior) without showing fear"
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/brave?region=us&q=b...
"to dare or defy ⇒ "to brave the odds "
to confront with resolution or courage ⇒ "to brave the storm""
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/brave
"to face or endure with courage"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brave
In this case, the source text leaves open the possibility of risk: that the fine may or may not have been imposed. Without further context, that is what I would have assumed. But thanks to Colin's research we know that Mocenigo knew he would have to pay if he did this, and accepted the obligation fearlessly.
The other source I quoted in the discussion reveals that the fine was imposed by an "ancient Law" forbidding anyone from suggesting making any change to the Doge's palace. The law imposing the fine was not a recent development and did not foresee the circumstances that had arisen. It is not that Venice was determined not to repair the damage that had occurred and to punish anyone who suggested doing so. It is simply the old ancestral Venetian determination to preserve their city and make sure no-one ever altered it in the future, added, perhaps, to a sense of invulnerability; the ancient Venetian legislators were not trying to prevent restoration, merely alteration; they presumably did not foresee that restoration of this kind would ever be necessary: that anyone would successfully attack the city. At any rate, everyone in Venice clearly must have known that Mocenigo would have to pay the fine if he went ahead, which he willingly did. A thousand ducats was a huge sum, but then you had to be fabulously wealthy to be the Doge.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day1 hr (2012-01-21 12:30:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
My comments in the last paragraph about the reasons behind this fine may well be incorrect; I based them on the mention of an "ancient law" in the source I quoted previously. However, E. V. Lucas gives a different account of this episode, in which the imposition of a fine on those advocating rebuilding the Palace is attributed to the need to avoid expense at a time of war, especially against Genoa:
"The next Ducal tomb is the imposing one of the illustrious Tommaso Mocenigo (1413-1423) who succeeded Steno and brought really great qualities to his office. Had his counsels been followed the whole history of Venice might have changed, for he was firm against the Republic's land campaigns, holding that she had territory enough and should concentrate on sea power: a sound and sagacious policy which found its principal opponent in Francesco Foscari, Mocenigo's successor, and its justification years later in the calamitous League of Cambray, to which I have referred elsewhere. Mocenigo was not only wise for Venice abroad, but at home too. A fine of a thousand ducats had been fixed as the punishment of anyone who, in those days of expenses connected with so many campaigns, chiefly against the Genoese, dared to mention the rebuilding or beautifying of the Ducal Palace. But Mocenigo was not to be deterred, and rising in his place with his thousand ducat penalty in his hand, he urged with such force upon the Council the necessity of rebuilding that he carried his point, and the lovely building much as we now know it was begun. That was in 1422. In 1423 Mocenigo died, his last words being a warning against the election of Foscari as his successor. But Foscari was elected, and the downfall of Venice dates from that moment."
E. V. Lucas, A Wanderer in Venice (New York: Macmillan, 1914), pp. 260–61.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16705/16705-h/16705-h.htm
The interpretation of the phrase remains the same, however; what Mocenigo chose to do made the fine inevitable.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Colin Rowe
: Yes, even more precise.
25 mins
|
Thanks, Colin!
|
|
agree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: what I understand "to brave" to mean
2 hrs
|
Thanks, gallagy :)
|
|
agree |
Alexandra Taggart
: He dared to go ahead, knowing that he's going to pay a fine.
1 day 19 hrs
|
Exactly. Thanks, Alexandra!
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+8
9 mins
risked a fine (and most likely paid it)
To "brave" the possible consequences of something is usually to have the valor (courage) to risk incurring the consequences of one's action - here a fine. He knew he would have to pay it.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Carol Gullidge
: yes, and explained far more explicitly than my attempt!
2 mins
|
Thanks Carol. We were rowing in the same direction. Have a good weekend.
|
|
agree |
Jack Doughty
2 mins
|
Thanks, Jack. Have a nice weekend.
|
|
agree |
Noni Gilbert Riley
4 mins
|
Cheers, Noni. have a good weekend.
|
|
agree |
Colin Rowe
9 mins
|
Thanks, Colin. Have a good weekend.
|
|
agree |
Thayenga
: As always short and to the point. Enjoy your weekend, Jenni. :)
1 hr
|
Thanks, Thayenga. Have a great weekend.
|
|
agree |
NancyLynn
1 hr
|
Thanks, Nancy Lynn. Have a good weekend.
|
|
agree |
Mel Willetts (X)
2 hrs
|
Thanks, Melinda. Have a good weekend.
|
|
agree |
amarpaul
: :-)
8 hrs
|
Thanks, amarpaul. Have a good weekend.
|
+1
11 mins
take the risk that he might incur a fine
to brave something means to take a risk of (undesirable) consequences
Or you might simply (and more commonly) "brave" the weather, ie, go out in bad weather regardless of the consequences.
Or you might simply (and more commonly) "brave" the weather, ie, go out in bad weather regardless of the consequences.
Reference comments
17 mins
Reference:
Reference to payment of the fine and the reasons for it
He did indeed pay the fine.
See the following eBook (with a ridiculously long title) on Google (original published in 1801):
"Retrospection, or, A review of the most striking and important events, characters, situations, and their consequences, which the last eighteen hundred years have presented to the view of mankind"
"Part of St. Mark's church was burned by accident, and part of the ducal palace. It was decreed that none should, on pain of paying 1000 ducats, move for the [sic] building them anew. Mocenigo paid the fine, and began the beautiful fabrick [sic] at his own expence [sic], which I saw existing in the year 1786."
http://books.google.de/books?id=jygGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA436&lpg=PA...
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Note added at 27 mins (2012-01-20 11:28:50 GMT)
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Page 436 (of 1001)
See the following eBook (with a ridiculously long title) on Google (original published in 1801):
"Retrospection, or, A review of the most striking and important events, characters, situations, and their consequences, which the last eighteen hundred years have presented to the view of mankind"
"Part of St. Mark's church was burned by accident, and part of the ducal palace. It was decreed that none should, on pain of paying 1000 ducats, move for the [sic] building them anew. Mocenigo paid the fine, and began the beautiful fabrick [sic] at his own expence [sic], which I saw existing in the year 1786."
http://books.google.de/books?id=jygGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA436&lpg=PA...
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Note added at 27 mins (2012-01-20 11:28:50 GMT)
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Page 436 (of 1001)
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Jenni Lukac (X)
: What beautiful type. An interesting window on the English of the period!
11 mins
|
Glad to be of assistance!
|
|
agree |
Noni Gilbert Riley
: THANK YOU (yes I'm shouting!): this is wonderful stuff. Glad you added the page ref too.... ;-)
21 mins
|
My pleasure!
|
|
agree |
Carol Gullidge
: excellent - what a find!
48 mins
|
Thanks! Simply googled "Mocenigo"+"1,000 ducats"!
|
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agree |
Charles Davis
: Great work. You did what needed to be done! Once you know the circumstances, you know the meaning.
1 hr
|
Thanks!
|
Discussion
"Mocenigo [...] was the Author of the rebuilding of the Palace of St. Mark, making a voluntary offer of 1000 Ducats, which by an ancient Law were a Penalty fixed upon the person that should first motion the altering of the Form and Structure of that Palace" (p. 557).
http://books.google.es/books?id=Wf0FAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA557&lpg=PA...
But the two answers below are fine too! (Sorry...)