argumento de fuerza

English translation: to lay down the law

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

Spanish term or phrase:	argumento de fuerza
English translation:	to lay down the law
Entered by:	Justin Peterson

16:05 Sep 4, 2018

Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)

Spanish term or phrase: argumento de fuerza

"Las autoridades alegaron diversos pretextos o simplemente utilizaron "argumentos de fuerza", denunció la CCDHRN."

This has got to have a standard English translation...

Justin Peterson KudoZ activity Questions: 368 (3 open) (9 without valid answers) (34 closed without grading) Answers: 37 Spain
Local time: 11:30

to lay down the law

Explanation:
This might work in context

lay down the law
phrase of law
issue instructions to other people in an authoritative or dogmatic way.

Selected response from:

ormiston
Local time: 11:30

Grading comment

This is the idea, in this case
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +2

"a fortiori" argument

Rebecca Jowers

3 +3

authoritarian/dogmantic argument

Sofia Bengoa

Forceful arguments

Steven Huddleston

went ahead

David Hollywood

brute force "rationale"/the "reasoning" of the law of the strongest/"argument" of the most powerful

JohnMcDove

steamrolled an argument

Luis Rey Ballesteros (Luiroi)

to lay down the law

ormiston

Summary of reference entries provided

Context

philgoddard

Discussion entries: 9

Sofia Bengoa

Spain

About the length of translations

17:50 Sep 5, 2018

Translations should not be measured by the number of words but by the meaning they convey, in my opinion.

Sandro Tomasi

This entry is very interesting

16:56 Sep 5, 2018

because normally one could translate argumento de fuerza as strong or convincing argument, but this is not the case here. While it may be that this is happening under an authoritarian government, it may be too much to translate the term as authoritarian argument, or something similar on that side of the spectrum.

Perhaps oppressive argument if we take into consideration the following:

Merriam-Webster
oppressive
1 : unreasonably burdensome or severe
- oppressive legislation
- oppressive taxes
- the oppressive power of corporations and Wall Street —Jim Hightower

2 : tyrannical
- an oppressive government

3 : overwhelming or depressing to the spirit or senses
- an oppressive climate
- the dusty drabness that was oppressive in its uneventfulness —Geoffrey Moorhouse

In this case, oppresive argument would stem from the first sense but, at the same time, preserve some of the connotational elements that stem from the second and third senses.

Steven Huddleston

Mexico

Then perhaps

17:07 Sep 4, 2018

Maybe "dismissive arguments" is more appropriate to the context.

Rebecca Jowers

Spain

@Justin

17:05 Sep 4, 2018

I agree that "a fortiori" argument may not fit your context!

Justin Peterson

Spain

ASKER

Thanks!

16:51 Sep 4, 2018

Rebecca, you're totally right. I was getting caught up on the legalese when what I really needed was a good idiom like "dismiss out of hand", which I went with

Rebecca Jowers

Spain

Hi, Justin

16:46 Sep 4, 2018

Fair enough, but since you said that “it seems there is no standard translation of this in legalese,” I thought I might offer one!

Justin Peterson

Spain

ASKER

Complicating It

16:40 Sep 4, 2018

Perhaps I was complicating my work. A precise legal translation, it seems, is not really in order. The idea, I think, is "dismiss out of hand" or "ignore", etc. In any case, thanks

Justin Peterson

Spain

ASKER

Rebecca Jowers

16:38 Sep 4, 2018

Thanks. Hmm. While that may the proper legal term, I think Phil has got the translation right. We are talking about a non-democratic regime of thugs who are, it seems, simply dismissing arguments, not seeking precise legal ones to counter them.

Justin Peterson

Spain

ASKER

Phil Goddard

16:19 Sep 4, 2018

Yes, that is certainly the idea, but ... is there no standard translation of this in legalese? It seems there is not.

Answers

3 mins confidence:

Forceful arguments

Explanation:
Sic. Common American English usage.

Steven Huddleston
Mexico
Local time: 03:30
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English,

Spanish
PRO pts in category: 82

28 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +2

"a fortiori" argument

Explanation:
As used in legal contexts, “argumento de fuerza” is perhaps more than just a “forceful argument.” As you will see from the texts copied below, “argumento de fuerza,” (in Latin “argumentum a fortiori”) is called “a fortiori argument” in English.

Argumento de fuerza: “con mayor razón”: argumento por el cual se extiende una disposición legal a hipótesis que ella no ha previsto y en las cuales el motivo al que ha legislado se encuentra en un grado mas alto que en la que ha enunciado formalmente. Se llama también “argumentum a fortiori” y tiene dos variantes: “ad maiore ad minus” (quien puede lo mas puede lo menos) y “ad minoris ad maius” (aquello que no puede lo menos, tampoco podrá lo mas).
https://www.monografias.com/trabajos89/argumentacionjuridica...

A fortiori argument means an argument from a strong source. This term is derived from the Latin legal maxim “argumentum a fortiori.” A fortiori argument is applied by following the logic that a point to be proved is followed from a stronger claim. This principle is applied in situations where:
1. a proposition previously given or proven in the argument contains and implies a variety of "weaker" or less contentful materials ; and
2. a proposition being proven is only one of the propositions contained and implied.
There are mainly two types of a fortiori argument. They are:
1. a maiore ad minus, that means from greater to smaller; and
2. a minore ad maius, that means from smaller to greater.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/a-fortiori-argument/

Rebecca Jowers
Spain
Local time: 11:30
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 2222

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

agree

Robert Forstag: It seems likely that the term would indeed have this specific meaning, especially since it would be unusual to express the idea of “forceful/strong/convincing argument” in this way.

6 mins

-> Thanks, Robert. This is the "legalese" term, but it may not fit in the context of Justin's text.

disagree

philgoddard: You make this sound like some kind of civilised philosophical discourse. It's not - it's government oppression.

17 mins

-> Thanks, Phil. Justin asked whether there was a leglese equivalent and that's what I provided. Whether it fits the context is another matter.

agree

MPGS: :-)

1 hr

-> Thanks, MPGS

neutral

AllegroTrans: As others have said, this is OK for a legal text/pleading etc. but not here

1 hr

-> Thanks, but as I've said several times here and above, I provided this translation because Justin asked for the "legalese" expression

agree

Yvonne Gallagher: yep, in legalese as seemed to be the question at first

8 hrs

-> Thanks, Yvonne

neutral

JohnMcDove: While it is great to get this data, in the context, it seems to be "the argument of the guy(s) who have the power and dominance by force of arms, violence, oppression, you name it...

8 hrs

-> Thanks. As I've repeated several times here and above, I provided this translation because the asker asked for the legalese equivalent.

33 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

authoritarian/dogmantic argument

Explanation:
I understand they give their dictates as arguments.

Sofia Bengoa
Spain
Native speaker of:

Spanish
PRO pts in category: 4
1 corroborated select project
in this pair and field

9 hrs confidence:

brute force "rationale"/the "reasoning" of the law of the strongest/"argument" of the most powerful

Explanation:
Some other ideas.
The "reasoning" of the power...

The rationale of whoever is the strongest...

The "reasons" supported by power and force...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2018-09-05 01:12:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Also, it could be something "the rule of force-power-dominance"

As we have the established expression "the rule of law" a variation such as "the rule of the strongest" "the rule of tyrant" or "the arguments of sheer force" or some such, might work in the context.

JohnMcDove
United States
Local time: 02:30
Native speaker of:

Spanish
PRO pts in category: 43

9 hrs confidence:

went ahead

Explanation:
"simply went ahead" is the idea in this context and register

David Hollywood
Local time: 06:30
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 1245

12 hrs confidence:

steamrolled an argument

Explanation:
.... or a decision. It seems to fit the context. Hope it helps.

https://socenv.org.uk/blogpost/1617513/291429/BEIS-Brexit-an...

The Gun Control Laws--Portents of Tyranny - Karen Selick
www.karenselick.com/FI9503.html
Their arguments are usually just steamrolled over with the patently false rejoinder that the police can handle this sort of thing, or the irrelevant observation that ...

Luis Rey Ballesteros (Luiroi)
Local time: 03:30
Native speaker of:

Spanish
PRO pts in category: 248

1 day 9 hrs confidence:

to lay down the law

Explanation:
This might work in context

lay down the law
phrase of law
issue instructions to other people in an authoritative or dogmatic way.

ormiston
Local time: 11:30
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 23

Grading comment

This is the idea, in this case

Reference comments

12 mins

Reference: Context

Reference information:
It's the final paragraph of the page. I think the idea is "put their foot down".
http://www.diariodecuba.com/derechos-humanos/1535997430_4163...

philgoddard
United States
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 868

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argumento de fuerza

English translation: to lay down the law

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