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Arabic to English translations [PRO] Social Sciences - Linguistics
Arabic term or phrase:ما كان.....إلا متع ب
النص الأصلي هو مأخوذ من كتاب احياء علوم الدين للإمام الغزالي ، من باب العلم تحت عنوان " بيان العلم الذي هو فرض كفاية"...و يبدو لي أن الترجمة المتواجدة على موقع الأمام الغزالي لم تكن مطابقة معنى النص الأصلي بل على عكسه
إليك النص الذي يحتاج إلى النظر فيه ******************************************************************* قال مالك رحمه الله: ما كان رجل صادقا في حديثه ولا يكذب إلا متع بعقله ولم يصبه مع الهرم آفة ولا خرف ******************************************************************* إليكم شرحه من كتاب " اتحاف السادة المتقين---- بشرح احياء علوم الدين"
( و قال مالك ما كان رجل صادقا في حديثه) أي عود لسانه بالصدق ( لا يكذب) فيه ( إلا متع بعقله ) أمتعه الله به ( ولم يصبه مع الهرم) أي كبر السن ( آفة ) في بدنه و حواسه ( و لا خرف) أي فساد العقل و هذا ظاهر في أهل الحديث المشتغلين به يموت أحدهم عن التسعين و أكثر و أقل ممتعا بحواسه ببركة صدقه في الحديث و روايته له
************************************************************************ Translation by: N. A. Faris http://www.ghazali.org/site/ihya.htm ) PDF file available under the title“ Book of knowledge ” ) No man who was truthful in relating the hadith and told no lie did not lose his mental faculty or suffered because of old age any infirmity or dotage.
My suggested translation: A person was being honest in relating Hadith and never told a lie, then his rational faculty was just preserved by Allah while it did not suffer with aging from any disease or dotage.
Points of Discussion: First: It looks to me that the phrase “ متع ب ” was mistranslated as “ ذهب ب ” (take away/lose) in the translation by N. A. Faris , while the phrase here refers to “ أمتعه الله بعقله ” , which means “ أبقاه لينتفع به ”, “ to preserve his rational faculty in order for him to benefit from it for a longer period of time.”
متع بعقله---- متع هنا فعل مجهول...معناه " أمتعه الله بعقله" أي أبقى الله عقل ذلك الشخص لينتفع بعقله لأطول مدة و حسب فهمي...الجملة " ولم يصبه مع الهرم آفة ولا خرف" هي جملة حالية تصف حال عقله كيف يكون اذن، النص يقرأ هكذا ما كان ( رجل صادقا في حديثه ولا يكذب ) إلا( متع بعقله) / ولم يصبه مع الهرم آفة ولا خرف
Second: ما كان..... إلا This expression implies that the thing mentioned after “ إلا ” comes in as a result of the situation mentioned in the sentence after “ ما كان ” . in other words, once a person relates Hadith honestly with lying on purpose, as a result of his honesty, Allah will preserve the rational faculty of that narrator for a long period of time, without being affected by disease or dotage due to aging.
I hope you all, as Arabic native speakers, share your understanding of this topic, and your suggestions of translation, or your opinions on my suggested translation.
Explanation: I agree about the mistranslation. The meaning in arabic is close to the translation you suggest. Let me suggest another one.
Whoever is truthful in his speech and doesn't lie, would be rewarded by enjoying (the full capacity of) his brain and he would not be afflicted with a disease or lose his mental health in old age
لأصبحت الجملة هكذا الذي كان يتحدث و هو صادق إلا مـُــتـِـع بعقله English: The one who is truthful in his narration, (his reason) will not be preserved.
إليكم مثال آخر فيه هذا الهكيل قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ما كان الفحش في شيء إلا شانه وما كان الحياء في شيء إلا زانه --- سنن الترمذي
ثم إليكم مثال آخر يأكد أن ما في الحديث السابق هو ما النافية أي ما في " ما كان....إلا..." هو ما النافية
عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إن الرفق لا يكون في شيء إلا زانه ولا ينزع من شيء إلا شانه ---- صحيح المسلم
في الحديث الثاني.... بدلا من " ما كان ...إلا...." يأتي "لا يكون ....إلا...." فهذا بين لنا أن "ما" في الحديث الأول ما النافية بلا شك
نفي النفي: ما كان ....الا English: No man........... did not. As I said previously,I accept this translation in terms of its structure which is to keep the original structure. Based on this acceptance, it draws my attention to the meaning of the translated sentence which is " No man..... did not lose"= which means" Anyone who relates Hadith honestly will lose....". I did not question the structure of his translation,but the meaning of the translation.<br><br>if you want to keep that structure "negation of the negation",then the word "lose" has to be amended. <br>or keep the word "lose",but change the structure.
كما شرحت سابقا...كنت أحلل تلك الترجمة باعتبار أن هكيل الجملة بني على نفي النفي...فلهذا...أعتقد أن ترجمة الكلمة " متع ب" غير صحيحة لو كنت لا أعتقد أن هيكل الجملة هو نفي النفي...ما فكرت في خطأ ترجمة الكلمة "متع ب"...لعلك فهمت قصدي
If you think "Ma" here is for negation, then, the original Arabic sentence is "negation of negation", and the translator is right to start with "no man", and the whole point of your argument that the translator is mistaken is groundless :)
Ma here is definitely "mawsula". You can decide by replacing it with الذي.
الواو في ولم يصبه عاطفة ويمكنك أن تقرأ في التفسير الآتي ( إلا متع بعقله ) أمتعه الله به ( ولم يصبه مع الهرم) أي كبر السن ( آفة ) في بدنه و حواسه ( و لا خرف) أي فساد العقل
"و لم يصبه" هنا..هذه الجملة تبدأ ب "لم"...الذي يفيد ماض و ليس مضارع... " ما أصابه"=" لم يصبه" لو كنا نرى "الواو" هنا عطف...لأصبحت الجملة هكذا إلا متع ب.....و (إلا) لم تصب لنوضح الموضوع أكثر وضوحا، دعنا نترك الجزء " متع ب"...فالجملة أصحبت هكذا ما كان رجل ..... إلا لم يصبه مع الهرم آفة ولا خرف و هذه الجملة تعطي معنا عكس المقصود
For example, it does not mean "Allah was All-Knower, All-Wise". It means "Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise", or in other words "Allah was, is, and will always be, All-Knower, All-Wise".
In Arabic we say "مضارع" not "حالية". I think this is what you mean.
Actually, the original structure is not "negation of negation". The first phrase " ما كان رجل" is not negation. It means "whoever". And the whole sentence is in the "future" if you like. But such seemingly "past tense" structures in Arabic are used for "confirmation" توكيد.
ما رأيك في تلك الجملة" ولم يصبه مع الهرم آفة ولا خرف" ، هل هي جملة حالية أو شيء غيرها حسب فهمك...أما أنا فأراها جملة حالية...فلهذا...ترجمتها ب while بدلا من "and" or " or".
I'm looking at what happened behind the scene. What caused this mistake? Is it the translator "not understanding the Arabic source?", "or failing to render the Arabic meaning correctly because of a slip"?
All I'm saying is the translator "خانه التعبير".
I mean, in the beginning, the translator decided to use the "no man .. will" structure, in the middle of the translation he forgot that he started with "no man" :), and "switched" to the "any man .. did not", which in the end resulted in the whole sentence giving an opposite meaning.
Accepting its "negation of negation" structure which most likely used to keep the original structure of the source text, it draws me to think the word of " متع ب" was translated as "ذهب ب " /take away,lose etc. <br><br>No man...... ما كان رجل<br>did not...... إلا <br>lose...... متع ب / which is translated as : ذهب ب<br>
That's right. I just noticed that. But even though, I don't think it is intended by the translator, which would lead us to say it's a mistranslation. I think I can categorize this as a "slip", or a "structural confusion".
I think the explanation I provided in my first comment above is what Faris tried to render into English, but slipped. Or as we say in Arabic: "خانه التعبير"
please look at the basic structure of the translated sentence provided by Faris, which is " No man......., did not lose.....", this "negation of negation" gives an opposite meaning of the source text, "No man...., did not lose...."= " whoever.... will lose", while the source text implies that "whoever.... his rational faculty would be preserved".
You said: “ متع ب ” was mistranslated as “ ذهب ب ” (take away/lose)". This is not correct.<br><br> “ متع ب ” was translated as “لم يفقد ” (did not lose)", which is synonymous with your suggestion. <br><br>If Allah "preserves" his mental faculty, this means "he will not lose it". <br><br>If I tell you "keep this", then I'm telling you "don't lose it", one way or the other. <br><br>I don't understand why you think Faris translation gives an opposite meaning. It gives the same meaning as yours, it only differs in the level of accuracy.
thanks for your suggestion. If "No" in the beginnig of the mistranslated sentence is replaced by "any".It will be better than the original translation which delivers an opposite meaning of the source text. But even "no" is replaced by "any", it sitll does not convey the positive meaning of the source text. The mistranslated word " متع ب“ is still outstanding.
Second: ما كان..... إلا This expression implies that the thing mentioned after “ إلا ” comes in as a result of the situation mentioned in the sentence after “ ما كان ” . in other words, once a person relates Hadith honestly **with** lying on purpose **************************** should be: **************************** Second: ما كان..... إلا This expression implies that the thing mentioned after “ إلا ” comes in as a result of the situation mentioned in the sentence after “ ما كان ” . in other words, once a person relates Hadith honestly ***without*** lying on purpose
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Answers
16 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +1
who ever (does ...) would be rewarded by ... ()
Explanation: I agree about the mistranslation. The meaning in arabic is close to the translation you suggest. Let me suggest another one.
Whoever is truthful in his speech and doesn't lie, would be rewarded by enjoying (the full capacity of) his brain and he would not be afflicted with a disease or lose his mental health in old age
yzmohasseb Local time: 20:50 Native speaker of: Arabic PRO pts in category: 4
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peer agreement (net): +1