| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | 汉语中特有的anomaly Thread poster: Alan Wang
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Alan Wang 
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
根据J.H.Wang给出的网页上那位权威的逻辑，的、地、得三字似乎也没太大必要去区别，全都用“的”字似乎也可以。因为和“其它”一样，这也可以说是语言的一种形式规则，没有非保留不可的实用价值。
再说了，就连他、她、它三字，口语中也是没区别的，口语里没区别都可以交流，难道书面文字上，有了上下文内容的护航，还不可以都用一个“他”吗？
wherestip wrote:
It's something that always gave the majority of people trouble.
I noticed that some people just categorically use "的" in all situations. Is that done according to a current standard or still should be attributed to being careless or somewhat illiterate?
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 09:28
Chinese to English
+ ...
Alan Wang wrote: 根据J.H.Wang给出的网页上那位权威的逻辑，的、地、得三字似乎也没太大必要去区别，全都用“的”字似乎也可以。因为和“其它”一样，这也可以说是语言的一种 形式规则，没有非保留不可的实用价值。 再说了，就连他、她、它三字，口语中也是没区别的，口语里没区别都可以交流，难道书面文字上，有了上下文内容的护航，还不可以都用一个“他”吗？ wherestip wrote:
It's something that always gave the majority of people trouble.
I noticed that some people just categorically use "的" in all situations. Is that done according to a current standard or still should be attributed to being careless or somewhat illiterate?
I wouldn't have a problem at all with things of this nature provided it was clearly sanctioned by some governing body. IMO it's very different than misuses like 赤果果.
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | what to believe | Jan 20, 2014 |
Zhoudan wrote:
我记得念小学的时候，默写学生守则，我写“其它”，老师扣了我一分，后来就一直写“其他”。有规定就按规定做，没啥好讨论的。
在中国，往往是某个人的一句话比字典的权威还要大。据我所知，直到目前，字典都没有说其它两字不可用。
| | | | Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
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pkchan
United States
Local time: 10:28
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
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想起“排他性”這詞， 當然是非常中性。還有動物“牠”，死物“它”，神學“祂”等“分工”，文字就應該是這樣多姿多彩，按需要而有所創造，有所發明。
談到，的、地、得，還有個“底”字，在文學作品中常見，都要算在內。http://www.cnedun.com/h/jiaoxue/76.html
[Edited at 2014-01-21 14:49 GMT]
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I definitely subscribe to what you said about language should have more “colors”. But what we now get is, to make an example:
把这个椅子留下，其他凳子、椅子都搬走。你留下，其他人都走，还有这条狗留下，其它（他？）狗都牵走。
It doesn't look very pretty to my mind. But to an utilitarianist, it's preferred.
But, if i am not a good rule-follower, I can be a utilitarianist. 
pkchan wrote:
想起“排他性”這詞， 當然是非常中性。還有動物“牠”，死物“它”，神學“祂”等“分工”，文字就應該是這樣多姿多彩，按需要而有所創造，有所發明。
談到，的、地、得，還有個“底”字，在文學作品中常見，都要算在內。http://www.cnedun.com/h/jiaoxue/76.html
[Edited at 2014-01-21 14:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-01-22 02:46 GMT]
| | | | pkchan
United States
Local time: 10:28
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
The use of she for I (also for you and he) is common in literary representations of Highland English.
" 'And here she comes,' said Donald, as Captain Dalgetty entered the hall." — Walter Scott, The Legend of Montrose iv (1819).
She is also used instead of it for things to which feminine gender is conventionally attributed: a ship or boat (especially in colloquial and dialect use), often said of a carriage, a cannon or gun, a tool or utensil of any kind, and occasionally of other th... See more The use of she for I (also for you and he) is common in literary representations of Highland English.
" 'And here she comes,' said Donald, as Captain Dalgetty entered the hall." — Walter Scott, The Legend of Montrose iv (1819).
She is also used instead of it for things to which feminine gender is conventionally attributed: a ship or boat (especially in colloquial and dialect use), often said of a carriage, a cannon or gun, a tool or utensil of any kind, and occasionally of other things.
She refers to abstractions personified as feminine, and also for the soul, a city, a country, an army, the Church, and others.
"Stanley had been ridiculing the habit of personifying the Church as a woman, and speaking of it tenderly as she." — George C. Brodrick, Memory and Impressions (1900) 252
"With all the pompous titles … bestowed upon France, she is not more than half so powerful as she might be." — The Annual Register III. Miscellaneous Essays (1760) 203
"[He] told the Ambassadour, that the Turkes army was at Malta, and that she had saccaged the towne." — Thomas Washington tr. Nicholay’s Voyages i. xiii. (1585) 14 b
Rarely and archaically, she referred to an immaterial thing without personification. Also of natural objects considered to be feminine, as the moon, or the planets that are named after goddesses; also of a river (now rare), formerly of the sea, a tree, etc. William Caxton in 1483 (The Golden Legende 112 b/2) and Robert Parke in 1588 (tr. Mendoza’s Historie of the great and mightie kingdome of China, 340) used she for the sun, but this may possibly be due to misprint; survival of the Old English grammatical gender can hardly be supposed, but Caxton may have been influenced by the fact that the sun is feminine in Dutch.
She has been used for her, as an object or governed by a preposition, both in literary use (now rare), or vulgarly, as an emphatic oblique (object) case.
"I want no angel, only she." — Olive Schreiner Story African Farm ii. xiii. (1889) 284
" 'I hope—our presence did not inconvenience—the young lady?' 'Bless your heart, sir! nothing ever inconveniences she'." — Miss Dinah Mulock Craik, John Halifax, gentleman x (1856).
She is also used attributively, applied to female animals, as in: she-ass, -ape, -bear, -dog, -dragon, -sheep, -wolf, -lion [really a punning distortion of shilling], -stock, and -stuff [in the U.S. = cattle]. When applied to persons, it is now somewhat contemptuous, as in she-being, -cousin, -dancer, -thief, and others. She-friend meant a female friend, often in bad sense, that is, a mistress; but she-saint, was simply a female saint. Rarely she was also prefixed to masculine nouns in place of the (later frequent) feminine suffix -ess.
"They took her for their Patroness, and consequently for their she God." — Daniel Brevint, Saul and Samuel at Endor, vii. (1674) 161.
It has also been prefixed to nouns with the sense "that is a woman", often in disparaging use but also with intensive force, as she-woman. Now it is somewhat rare:
"Some she-malady, some unhealthy wanton, Fires thee verily." — Robinson Ellis, The poems and fragments of Catullus, vi. (1871) 4
"Correlative to the he-man is the she-woman, who is equally undesirable." — B. Russell, New Hopes for changing World (1951) 162
〞國家〞用她，中英同，〞船〞英文也用她，無論是男是女，一個〞其〞字就可以了。英文〞小孩〞用〞it"。
[Edited at 2014-01-22 04:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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前几天在一个翻译群中讨论，有人说：“当......以后”不是正确的表达，应该是"当......时"，或者"......以后"。中学语文的语法中就有这样的规定。
我对此很不以为然，但翻遍字典，似乎的确如此，词典中没有任何一个义项可以支持“当......以后”。
但实际表达中，这种用法又很常见。
大家怎么看？
[Edited at 2014-01-22 14:44 GMT]
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Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
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Yan Yuliang wrote:
前几天在一个翻译群中讨论，有人说：“当......以后”不是正确的表达，应该是"当......时"，或者"......以后"。中学语文的语法中就有这样的规定。
我对此很不以为然，但翻遍字典，似乎的确如此，词典中没有任何一个义项可以支持“当......以后”。
但实际表达中，这种用法又很常见。
大家怎么看？
[Edited at 2014-01-22 14:44 GMT]
或者，.......以后
当与英文when一个意思，似乎不能表示 after。
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:28
Chinese to English
据了解，“有...过” 也不是标准普通话，但在我们闽南一带算是很普遍的”加重“说法。其实这种似是而非的说法每个语言都有，英文的"双重否定“和I/me从句混淆问题也是一样。
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老狼-情人劫
专辑:北京的冬天
......
当你走后我终于知道
在你面前我在劫难逃
......
我多读了几遍，“当你走后”中的“当”被我读出了介词的感觉。如果改成“在你走后”，似乎又没有那么“文艺范”的感觉。或许语言就是这样，用的多了，人的大脑就会赋予一些词句新的涵义？
这让我想起Jinhang之前的一个提议，说汉语规范性太差。要真正规范起来，我想要从先弄一本权威的汉语语法书开始。
J.H. Wang wrote: Yan Yuliang wrote:
前几天在一个翻译群中讨论，有人说：“当......以后”不是正确的表达，应该是"当......时"，或者"......以后"。中学语文的语法中就有这样的规定。
我对此很不以为然，但翻遍字典，似乎的确如此，词典中没有任何一个义项可以支持“当......以后”。
但实际表达中，这种用法又很常见。
大家怎么看？
[Edited at 2014-01-22 14:44 GMT] 或者，.......以后 当与英文when一个意思，似乎不能表示 after。
[Edited at 2014-01-22 16:10 GMT]
| | | | Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
+ ...
Yan Yuliang wrote: 老狼-情人劫
专辑:北京的冬天
......
当你走后我终于知道
在你面前我在劫难逃
...... 我多读了几遍，“当你走后”中的“当”被我读出了介词的感觉。如果改成“在你走后”，似乎又没有那么“文艺范”的感觉。 或许语言就是这样，用的多了，人的大脑就会赋予一些词句新的涵义？ 这让我想起Jinhang之前的一个提议，说汉语规范性太差。 要真正规范起来，我想要从先弄一本权威的汉语语法书开始。 J.H. Wang wrote: Yan Yuliang wrote:
前几天在一个翻译群中讨论，有人说：“当......以后”不是正确的表达，应该是"当......时"，或者"......以后"。中学语文的语法中就有这样的规定。
我对此很不以为然，但翻遍字典，似乎的确如此，词典中没有任何一个义项可以支持“当......以后”。
但实际表达中，这种用法又很常见。
大家怎么看？
[Edited at 2014-01-22 14:44 GMT] 或者，.......以后 当与英文when一个意思，似乎不能表示 after。 [Edited at 2014-01-22 16:10 GMT]
代替“当你走后”，或者用“当你走了”。
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 09:28
Chinese to English
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
据了解，“有...过” 也不是标准普通话，但在我们闽南一带算是很普遍的”加重“说法。其实这种似是而非的说法每个语言都有，英文的"双重否定“和I/me从句混淆问题也是一样。
http://bbs.oeeee.com/photoview-fid-104-tid-16930115-onid-1.html
咱们习主席的珍贵照片！你有看过吗？
Phil,
Is this the sentence structure you're referring to? If so, then you're right; it is not standard Mandarin.
普通话一般说：
你看过吗？
你见过吗？
你曾经看见过吗？ －－ 可称为加重说法
等等 ...
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 09:28
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Speaking of double negatives | Jan 23, 2014 |
Way back, one of Sissy Spacek's lines in the "Coal Miner's Daughter" made me laugh while also making a great impression on me:
Loretta:
You never asked me nothin' about no new house.
Mooney:
I wanted to surprise you, baby.
Loretta:
Stop surprisin'me.
You never ask me about nothin'!
Mooney:
Hell, I thought you'd want a new house, for the privacy if nothin' else.
Loretta:
I ain't said I don't want no new house.
I just said you ain't asked me nothin' about it.
And apparently I'm not the only one ...
http://southern4life.blogspot.com/2009/10/i-was-tagged.html
Michael Rivers said...
I love her too! Coal Miner's Daughter is in my Top 5 Movies. I know just about every line of dialogue. One of my favorites: "I ain't said I don't want no new house."
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 22:28
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yan Yuliang wrote:
我多读了几遍，“当你走后”中的“当”被我读出了介词的感觉。如果改成“在你走后”，似乎又没有那么“文艺范”的感觉。或许语言就是这样，用的多了，人的大脑就会赋予一些词句新的涵义？
我可以赞同这种意见。如同鲁迅说的，本来没有路，走的人多了，就成了路。
就翻译对语言发展的贡献来说，‘翻译腔’也许占了很大一部分。一方面，你可以说某些词或说法是翻译腔，但是，如果这样使用的人多了，它就被认可了。比如：food security，一般都翻译为粮食（食品）安全，但是这个词组并不是我们汉语中常用的‘食品安全’的意思。汉语中‘食品安全’是说要没有三聚氰胺，地沟油等等。food security这个词的意思是‘保障粮食供给’。有几个人现在会这样翻译？太麻烦了。直译了事。这种翻译腔已经完全被认可了。央视在讨论这些问题时，打出来的字都是粮食安全。
这种现象也影响我们工作中的具体操作。
比如在校订译文时，一开始可能去把它改过来，但是后来对某种用法见得多了，就不去改了。或是让两种译法或说法并行，即使是在同一篇文章中。
Actor 这个词，我在一篇外交分析文章中见它被翻译为‘行为体’，对我来说比较新鲜或说有点别扭。它的意思当然是‘影响……的因素（人物、部门）’。这个词的使用频率很高，你要想避开‘行为体’的译法很难，我的做法就是让这两种说法并行。所以我渐渐地觉得翻译中词语使用的统一不是唯一可取的做法。
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