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“龙”的英文应该翻译成 Loong - 转发 (A Chinese Teacher Suggests that "Dragon" should be written as "Loong")
Thread poster: Libin PhD
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:35
Chinese to English
+ ...
Failure to Launch May 5

wherestip wrote:

pkchan wrote:


18年來,一直認為 LOONG 只不過是龍的音譯,沒有什麼至高無上,神聖不可侵犯。至於在什麼時候才能像 KETCHUP 一樣,升格成英文字,那就要看港式文化威力了。不過,如今港式文化被摧殘到如此地步,恐怕如掩口費 YIM HAU FAI,封口費 FUNG HAU FAI 一樣,變得遙遙無期了。




风趣 or 幽默(borrowed from humor) ?

Either way, I'm laughing.


Success of newly-coined terminology highly depends on whether it is accepted, or popularized, by the majority of the speaking public of the borrowing/receiving culture.

So far the word "loong" has failed to take flight, pardon the pun. IMO, it is mainly because there is no need for "loong" to supplant the word "dragon".




[Edited at 2024-05-05 14:43 GMT]


ysun
 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:35
English to Chinese
+ ...
集思广益 vs. 一孔之见 May 5

wherestip wrote:

Success of a newly-coined terminology highly depends on whether it is accepted, or popularized, by the majority of the speaking public of the borrowing/receiving culture.

So far the word "loong" has failed to take flight. IMO, mainly because there is no need for "loong" to supplant the word "dragon".

中新网:400条文化术语诠释与英译公布 专家:误译易引发误解
https://www.chinanews.com.cn/m/cul/2017/05-18/8226988.shtml
  中国龙依然是dragon,别纠结

  译者们绞尽脑汁为翻译一个术语曾讨论一下午


  翻译一个短短的词,看似简单,实则需要走多个流程。记者在已经出版的书籍中看到《中华思想文化术语》,每个术语由条目、中文释义和引例组成,每部分都有对应的英译。这些术语最终出炉,需要由文史哲专家和翻译家层层讨论和“把关”,有的需要数周或者数月。

  谁来翻

  国内外90余位专家组队


  “兼具外语翻译能力同时又对中华传统文化有深厚功底的专家,可谓凤毛麟角。”外研社副总编辑章思英说,“工程”启动后,李学勤、林戊荪、叶嘉莹、张岂之等著名学者担任顾问,90余位文、史、哲学科及英语翻译领域的国内外知名专家应邀组成专家学术团队。

......

  汉译英:为求贴近绞尽脑汁

  术语翻译成英文,如何既能传播术语所包含的中文内涵,又能让外国受众理解?章思英说,科学而严格的翻译流程最大限度地保障了译文的质量。“我们一共有三道流程。首先是由从事翻译工作至少10年以上的资深译者,将术语翻译成英语。第二步是请资深汉学家修改润色,这些汉学家通常在文史哲的某一个领域钻研很深,且英语是其母语或以英语作为主要工作语言及学术研究语言,由他们润色能保证语言的地道和流畅。第三步由国内资深的英语专家,同时也是长期从事对外传播的专家最后定稿。”

  记者注意到,有一些术语直接用汉语拼音做了音译,比如“风骨”就音译成了Fenggu。章思英坦言,有些术语含义很丰富、很综合,没有办法找到绝对对应的英语单词或词组来表达,这时会采用音译,读者通过阅读释义,一般可以理解其含义。她举例说,“仁”通常被翻译成benevolence,但我们选择了音译“ren”。因为“仁”有三重含义:恻隐之心或良心;根源于父子兄弟关系基础上的亲亲之德;天地万物一体的状态和境界。而“benevolence”只能表示“仁慈、善行”。

  以前也有观点认为,“龙”不能翻译成dragon,因为dragon在英文中是凶狠凶恶的怪物。对此,章思英说,“龙”的概念在中西方完全不同,“工程”译审专家之所以仍将“龙”翻译为dragon,是因为译审组有来自外交部、外文局、中央编译局等机构的专家,大家都认为,以往中外交流不频繁时,可能外国人会纳闷,中国人为何会信奉一个凶恶的图腾形象。但到了今天,海外很多读者已经知道中国龙不同于西方的龙,中西交流频繁后,西方的文学影视作品中,也有龙的正面形象出现。

实际上,早在一百多年前,海外的洋人就已知道中国龙并非是一个凶恶的图腾形象。这“国内外90余位专家组队”的“大陪审团”,等于也是给 loong 一词判了死刑。这些专家们绞尽脑汁把“风骨”音译成了Fenggu,却还是跟 loong 过不去,你说气人不气人!

The 125th Golden Dragon Parade in Chinatown, Los Angeles
https://www.proz.com/post/3031481#3031481


Spectators enjoy the Chinese display at the La Fiesta de Los Angeles parade in 1901. (Courtesy of The California Historical Society and University of Southern California Digital Library)

常识
https://www.proz.com/post/3036608#3036608
ysun wrote:

hj58 wrote:

国际社会用龙象征中国,却把龙译为 dragon,和恶魔同名,显然必须纠正。这么简单的常识,中国人居然折腾了四十多年:1980年中国外语学者就开始发表论文说龙和 dragon 不同,我收集到的就有几百篇;但是到了 2024年,民间才部分改过来(官媒是报道民间现象而已),而外宣官方如外文局、外交部发言人华春莹赵立坚等还不肯改。

你发明了一个英文单词 loong,即使中国大陆家喻户晓,甚至将来还可能被写进国标,那么,无论你在中国爱怎么叫都可以。但是到了国外,那就得英语世界的人们普遍接受才能算数。这就是简单的常识。国外《牛津词典》及其他某些词典将“Chinese dragon”(而非 loong)收入词典,实际上就是对 loong 一词判了死刑!


wherestip
 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:35
Chinese to English
+ ...
难怪公开信被外交部拒绝 May 5

ysun wrote:


中新网:400条文化术语诠释与英译公布 专家:误译易引发误解
https://www.chinanews.com.cn/m/cul/2017/05-18/8226988.shtml
  中国龙依然是dragon,别纠结

  译者们绞尽脑汁为翻译一个术语曾讨论一下午


  翻译一个短短的词,看似简单,实则需要走多个流程。记者在已经出版的书籍中看到《中华思想文化术语》,每个术语由条目、中文释义和引例组成,每部分都有对应的英译。这些术语最终出炉,需要由文史哲专家和翻译家层层讨论和“把关”,有的需要数周或者数月。

  谁来翻

  国内外90余位专家组队


  “兼具外语翻译能力同时又对中华传统文化有深厚功底的专家,可谓凤毛麟角。”外研社副总编辑章思英说,“工程”启动后,李学勤、林戊荪、叶嘉莹、张岂之等著名学者担任顾问,90余位文、史、哲学科及英语翻译领域的国内外知名专家应邀组成专家学术团队。

......

  汉译英:为求贴近绞尽脑汁

  术语翻译成英文,如何既能传播术语所包含的中文内涵,又能让外国受众理解?章思英说,科学而严格的翻译流程最大限度地保障了译文的质量。“我们一共有三道流程。首先是由从事翻译工作至少10年以上的资深译者,将术语翻译成英语。第二步是请资深汉学家修改润色,这些汉学家通常在文史哲的某一个领域钻研很深,且英语是其母语或以英语作为主要工作语言及学术研究语言,由他们润色能保证语言的地道和流畅。第三步由国内资深的英语专家,同时也是长期从事对外传播的专家最后定稿。”

  记者注意到,有一些术语直接用汉语拼音做了音译,比如“风骨”就音译成了Fenggu。章思英坦言,有些术语含义很丰富、很综合,没有办法找到绝对对应的英语单词或词组来表达,这时会采用音译,读者通过阅读释义,一般可以理解其含义。她举例说,“仁”通常被翻译成benevolence,但我们选择了音译“ren”。因为“仁”有三重含义:恻隐之心或良心;根源于父子兄弟关系基础上的亲亲之德;天地万物一体的状态和境界。而“benevolence”只能表示“仁慈、善行”。

  以前也有观点认为,“龙”不能翻译成dragon,因为dragon在英文中是凶狠凶恶的怪物。对此,章思英说,“龙”的概念在中西方完全不同,“工程”译审专家之所以仍将“龙”翻译为dragon,是因为译审组有来自外交部、外文局、中央编译局等机构的专家,大家都认为,以往中外交流不频繁时,可能外国人会纳闷,中国人为何会信奉一个凶恶的图腾形象。但到了今天,海外很多读者已经知道中国龙不同于西方的龙,中西交流频繁后,西方的文学影视作品中,也有龙的正面形象出现。


实际上,早在一百多年前,海外的洋人就已知道中国龙并非是一个凶恶的图腾形象。这“国内外90余位专家组队”的“大陪审团”,等于也是给 loong 一词判了死刑。这些专家们绞尽脑汁把“风骨”音译成了Fenggu,却还是跟 loong 过不去,你说气人不气人!



ysun,

Who would have thought! The issue of whether to adopt the word "loong" has long been scrutinized by 90+ experts and decided.

I'd say the poor thing has been through the wringer already.



 
David Shen
David Shen  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 15:35
English to Chinese
+ ...
Through the Wringer Already 脑汁已绞尽 May 5

wherestip wrote:

ysun wrote:
...... 这些专家们绞尽脑汁把“风骨”音译成了Fenggu,却还是跟 loong 过不去,你说气人不气人!

ysun,

...... The issue of whether to adopt the word "loong" has long been scrutinized by 90+ experts and decided.

I'd say the poor thing has been through the wringer already.





What a coincidence Steve that you choose to use this "Western machine" to illustrate efforts made by translators trying to convey meanings/concepts of hard to describe things.

I am sitting in my friend's garage near downtown Seattle but next (as I type) to a Coffield washing machine manufactured in Dayton Ohio. This one is different from the one in your picture. It is the first, electric model (Model SX312EOW) and has a patent date of Oct.1 1918. Here is a picture of the Coffield washing machine on flickr.com and looks exactly like the one next to me:



photo credit: Don Reeves

For those of us growing up in Mainland China, the first thing that date reminds us of is the Soviet movie 《列宁在1918》. Who would have thought that when the Russians were storming their royal palaces with violence, the Americans were trying to make things easier for their housewives. I guess both had to 绞尽脑汁 before changes could happen or new designs could materialize.

My friend remembers his grandma was still using it in the early 1950s to do the laundry when he and his siblings were running around all day in parks and had dirty clothes. The last time he tried it in the 1990s it was still working! Now a hundred years later, we have all these new washing machines, but he wants to keep this antique washing machine in the family, and I can understand why.

Maybe we should start to talk about something other than dragons, what do you guys think?
So much for now and wait till I return to my mountain cabin.



[Edited at 2024-05-05 18:58 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:35
English to Chinese
+ ...
此事确实早就有定论 May 5

wherestip wrote:

Who would have thought! The issue of whether to adopt the word "loong" has long been scrutinized by 90+ experts and decided.

I'd say the poor thing has been through the wringer already.

上海市民黄佶于2019年1月7日将其“致外交部的公开信”寄给了外交部部长王毅,并抄送给国家主席办公室、全国人大常委会、国务院及新闻媒体。而早在2017年5月18日,中国新闻网与央视网就同时转载了《400条文化术语诠释与英译公布 专家:误译易引发误解》一文。所以说“中国龙依然是dragon”,此事早就有定论。

上海市民黄佶致外交部的公开信:请别再把“龙”译为“dragon”了
http://www.loong.cn/huangji_190106.htm

信中说道:
  中国的国家主席代表十几亿海内外华人亲口告诉全世界:“我们叫龙的传人”,但是经过翻译之后,外国人听到的却是“我们自称魔鬼的后代”(We call ourselves descendants of the dragon),不仅没有准确传达说话者的原意,而且把原意歪曲成了截然相反的意思。这显然是一次非常失败的跨文化传播,是一次非常严重的外交事故,是一个非常严重的政治错误,非常不利于中国建设良好的、热爱和平的国家形象。

说实话,我看了这封公开信之后确实替那位上海市民捏了一把冷汗!习近平主席是清华大学的博士。如果他也认为 dragon 就是魔鬼,他肯定会立即纠正外交部翻译司英文处参赞兼处长周宇的翻译。那位上海市民之所以认为“We call ourselves descendants of the dragon”等同于“我们自称魔鬼的后代”,就是出于他的这一偏见:“dragon 就是魔鬼”。显然,歪曲习近平讲话原意的并非是周宇。难怪此公开信会被外交部拒收!我建议那位上海市民尽早将此公开信从他网站上删除,以免惹祸上身!

实际上,习近平在2022年世界经济论坛视频会议上演讲,在提到“生龙活虎、龙腾虎跃”时,对应于龙字的英文仍然是 dragon。外交部网站也登出了此演讲英文版的全文。

习近平在2022年世界经济论坛视频会议的演讲(双语全文)
新华社 2022-01-18
https://language.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202201/18/WS61e65993a310cdd39bc81d29.html

Xi Jinping Attends the 2022 World Economic Forum Virtual Session and Delivers a Speech
https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/zxxx_662805/202201/t20220118_10629754.html


[修改时间: 2024-05-06 03:35 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:35
English to Chinese
+ ...
Translation of 卧虎藏龙 May 5

Live "lóng" and prosper: the dragon in Chinese culture-Xinhua
Source: Xinhua Editor: huaxia 2024-02-13

https://english.news.cn/20240213/cbeaf960ad074935953df52113f57e86/c.html

...
See more
Live "lóng" and prosper: the dragon in Chinese culture-Xinhua
Source: Xinhua Editor: huaxia 2024-02-13

https://english.news.cn/20240213/cbeaf960ad074935953df52113f57e86/c.html



此译文中既没提到虎,也没提到龙。可见,高手并不一定要逐字翻译。

Film: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crouching_Tiger,_Hidden_Dragon
Collapse


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:35
English to Chinese
+ ...
Agree May 6

David Shen wrote:

Maybe we should start to talk about something other than dragons, what do you guys think?
So much for now and wait till I return to my mountain cabin.


赞成!你提起老影片《列宁在1918》,让我想起了其中许多至今仍在网上广为流传的经典台词,例如“让列宁同志先走”。现在这句经典台词却已经演变成“让领导同志先走”了!

“让列宁同志先走”,“他已经不咳嗽了”记忆犹新,经典重现
https://m.v.qq.com/x/m/play?cid=&vid=v0906n97xm6


 
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“龙”的英文应该翻译成 Loong - 转发 (A Chinese Teacher Suggests that "Dragon" should be written as "Loong")






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