| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | 我们的中文论坛应该禁止使用英语吗？(Should English be banned from the Chinese Forum?) Thread poster: Kevin Yang
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wherestip 
United States
Local time: 22:54
Chinese to English
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| Too bad nobody wants to own up to the formal complaint | Dec 27, 2006 |
... and give us a reason why English posts are not welcomed. Being an engineer, the mind starts to think of other possibilities.
Hmm... Could it be that there are those who aren't really that enamored with the idea of the Chinese forum being a successful and vital entity that functions tightly under the ProZ.com organization?
It looks like the person must have known the rules well enough to file a complaint based on some technicalities. To me, it really doesn't look l... See more ... and give us a reason why English posts are not welcomed. Being an engineer, the mind starts to think of other possibilities.
Hmm... Could it be that there are those who aren't really that enamored with the idea of the Chinese forum being a successful and vital entity that functions tightly under the ProZ.com organization?
It looks like the person must have known the rules well enough to file a complaint based on some technicalities. To me, it really doesn't look like a complaint that was originated from anyone actively participating in this forum.
[Edited at 2006-12-27 14:33] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 22:54
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Not a Witch Hunt | Dec 27, 2006 |
wherestip wrote:
It looks like the person must have known the rules well enough to file a complaint based on some technicalities. To me, it really doesn't look like a complaint that was originated from anyone actively participating in this forum.
BTW, by no means was this a witch hunt on my part.
It's just an attempt to identify the motive behind the complaint. I could be way off base. But if it was purely out of jealousy, I don't think there's much to worry about.
... Just speaking my mind.
[Edited at 2006-12-27 16:36]
| | | | | Other Chinese translation sites and forums | Dec 27, 2006 |
wherestip wrote: wherestip wrote:
It looks like the person must have known the rules well enough to file a complaint based on some technicalities. To me, it really doesn't look like a complaint that was originated from anyone actively participating in this forum.
BTW, by no means was this a witch hunt on my part. It's just an attempt to identify the motive behind the complaint. I could be way off base. But if it was purely out of jealousy, I don't think there's much to worry about. ... Just speaking my mind. [Edited at 2006-12-27 16:36]
Yes. I think this is possible. I know there are other specifically Chinese translation sites with their own forums and terms help (and I am sure there are Japanese ones as well, and Russian, etc.) If people wanted Chinese-only forum discussions on translation they could go there, in fact I am sure some peers already do. Proz is interesting because it is a chance for all translators to interact regardless of language pair (as long as they have English...).
Well, moving on. Maybe someone (a Chinese translator-entrepreneur) could set up a 'Chinese Proz', with Chinese as the official site language. There might be a place for it. It could cater for all the world Chinese communities, in North and South America, Europe, Australasia and the Pacific, South East Asia and Africa (the 'diaspora'). 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.' It would replicate the success of the Proz format. Perhaps it could be done 'under licence'. Reality TV show formats are 'localised' in this fashion.
This might better cater for those who feel uncomfortable in 'mixed company', or whose sensibilities are challenged by the fact that Proz is run by Westerners with the 'historical baggage' therein. I think this discussion is valuable and valid and something the Proz management could consider, in relation in particular to the Chinese and Arabic language communities, and perhaps also Hindi and Russian. Perhaps Proz could become a 'federation'. Religious organisations (such as the Anglican church in NZ) also do this, to cater for diversity and give a measure of cultural autonomy, with greater or lesser success.
This whole discussion could be expanded into a structural and policy matter for Proz management, and could quite possibly be considered together with the 'localisation project', and what the aims and agendas are with that.
Proz's guiding principles, whatever they are, perhaps need to be spelt out, so that this Chinese community knows what is possible within the Proz framework, and what is not. We should not let Proz drift and see it subverted and used to other people's and agencies' ends.
| | | | Georgiacao
Local time: 05:54
English to German
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| Chinese input everywhere? | Dec 27, 2006 |
Nowaday we can surf in internet fast everywhere. However, the question is, if we can type Chinese everywhere?
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 22:54
Chinese to English
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| Good point, Lesley | Dec 28, 2006 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
Yes. I think this is possible. I know there are other specifically Chinese translation sites with their own forums and terms help (and I am sure there are Japanese ones as well, and Russian, etc.) If people wanted Chinese-only forum discussions on translation they could go there, in fact I am sure some peers already do. Proz is interesting because it is a chance for all translators to interact regardless of language pair (as long as they have English...).
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Proz's guiding principles, whatever they are, perhaps need to be spelt out, so that this Chinese community knows what is possible within the Proz framework, and what is not. We should not let Proz drift and see it subverted and used to other people's and agencies' ends.
I wasn't quite thinking along the line of conspiracy theory, but what's to say that possibility should be entirely ruled out?
I totally agree with you. Maybe some of the policies and rules that no longer make sense should be revisited by ProZ.com management. If I were the boss, I certainly wouldn't let a flawed policy hinder my own operation and let it be played to the advantage of the competition. Instead I would make sure the policies are sensible and play into my own strength. IMHO the strong international-wide cast and talent we have in this forum should certainly be viewed as an asset to ProZ.com.
| | | | redred
China
Local time: 11:54
English to Chinese
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| Surely know you are oppositive, but you would belong to the second category to opposite, hehe | Dec 28, 2006 |
wherestip wrote:
Kevin,
I think the statistics speak for themselves.
If it is site management's desire to exclude the 30% of people who currently participate in the forum discussions(or a good portion of that 30%), then the Chinese only policy should be strictly enforced. I actually just became aware of this policy, and frankly don't really understand the rationale behind it.
IMO people should have the choice of using whatever language they feel most comfortable with in expressing their views on a particular topic. It's a decision that should be left entirely up to the individual.
I think you have no problem in Pinyin typing while your PC in the day-time work would have been installed Chinese inputting, a China-left person for decades who is nearly a native English speaker, directly inputs English is such convenient.
[Edited at 2006-12-28 01:33]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 20:54
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | May I suggest closing this discussion at this point? | Dec 28, 2006 |
Hello, Steve and Lesley, all those translators who have shared their views in this thread
Your messages here are very informative. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me and the fellow peers. You are from different parts of the world and have different backgrounds and preferences, and fully qualified to represent the spectrum of our users in this site. I will make sure the Management stuff come and read your messages here, and hope they can come up with a solution that can addr... See more Hello, Steve and Lesley, all those translators who have shared their views in this thread
Your messages here are very informative. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me and the fellow peers. You are from different parts of the world and have different backgrounds and preferences, and fully qualified to represent the spectrum of our users in this site. I will make sure the Management stuff come and read your messages here, and hope they can come up with a solution that can address this concern.
May I suggest closing this discussion at this point? Like your reactions, I was also surprised and confused by the motivation, intention and the method to voice a different opinion. I suggest that we all should be more considerate when using the resources, and make sure if the issue to be reported is absolutely a problem that become bothersome to the individual or a group of people. Through this discussion, we can see that this matter is not really considered a departure from the guideline, and my conclusion is also supported by my manual count of the English messages that are clearly well under the percentage that the site can tolerate based on the user composition in the Chinese Forum. At this point, let's all assume we all meant well and are trying to build this site the best workplace that we all enjoy coming and interacting with each other.
Let’s do not make further guesses and push those who have not spoken in this thread to speak. That is not important anymore, because no comment is also a comment. Instead, we should learn to tolerate and accept all the views and opinions that are different from our own. That will be the highest realm of diversity. Let’s be grateful that this event helped us see where we might need to improve, so all our members will be taken care of well. As for the current state of our bilingual communication format in the Chinese Forum, I think it is fine.
It is the end of 2006, and this is the time that I, as well as you, should take a moment to reflect our performance in 2006. You did great, and I could not possibly ask for more. I want to take this opportunity to thank you all, each of you, for being there and be my fans and supporters. Being able to interact with you here, honestly, I learned a lot from you and had fun time with you. I also want you to know that this volunteer job, the Moderator of Chinese Forum from the day one, also become more stressful than I had ever noticed before, because it has taken too much time from my personal life and my business. I am ready for change.
Happy New Year to you all!
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-12-28 17:51] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 22:54
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Happy New Year | Dec 28, 2006 |
TongliUSA wrote:
Hello, Steve and Lesley, all those translators who have shared their views in this thread
Your messages here are very informative. Thank you for sharing your opinions with me and the fellow peers. You are from different parts of the world and have different backgrounds and preferences, and fully qualified to represent the spectrum of our users in this site. I will make sure the Management stuff come and read your messages here, and hope they can come up with a solution that can address this concern.
May I suggest closing this discussion at this point? Like your reactions, I was also surprised and confused by the motivation, intention and the method to voice a different opinion. I suggest that we all should be more considerate when using the resources, and make sure if the issue to be reported is absolutely a problem that become bothersome to the individual or a group of people. Through this discussion, we can see that this matter is not really considered a departure from the guideline, and my conclusion is also supported by my manual count of the English messages that are clearly well under the percentage that the site can tolerate based on the user composition in the Chinese Forum. At this point, let all assume we all meant well and are trying to build this site the best workplace that we all enjoy coming and interacting with each other.
Let’s do not make further guesses and push those who have not spoken in this thread to speak. That is not important anymore, because no comment is also a comment. Instead, we should learn to tolerate and accept all the views and opinions that are different from our own. That will be the highest realm of diversity. Let’s be grateful that this event helped us see where we might need to improve, so all our members will be taken care of well. As for the current state of our bilingual communication format in the Chinese Forum, I think it is fine.
It is the end of 2006, and this is the time that I, as well as you, should take a moment to reflect our performance in 2006. You did great, and I could not possibly ask for more. I want to take this opportunity to thank you all, each of you, for being there and be my fans and supporters. Being able to interact with you here, honestly, I learned a lot from you and had fun time with you. I also want you to know that this volunteer job, the Moderator of Chinese Forum from the day one, also become more stressful than I had ever noticed before, because it has taken too much time from my personal life and my business. I am ready for change.
Happy New Year to you all!
Kevin
Kevin,
You've been a great moderator to this forum. ProZ.com couldn't have found a better one even with pay. Whoever they find to take over your job would have some very big shoes to fill.
Wishing You A Happy and Prosperous New Year,
Steve
[Edited at 2006-12-29 12:30]
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| Bridging the communication gaps | Dec 29, 2006 |
Hi all,
Different cultures can result in communication gaps. I feel this may have happened here and I assume full responsibility for this gap, and the one sending a message is responsible for making sure it was properly received.
There was indeed a support ticket about the use of English language in the Chinese forum and I got in touch with Kevin to work this out with him. I have known Kevin for a long time and I consider him a great moderator and we have worked severa... See more Hi all,
Different cultures can result in communication gaps. I feel this may have happened here and I assume full responsibility for this gap, and the one sending a message is responsible for making sure it was properly received.
There was indeed a support ticket about the use of English language in the Chinese forum and I got in touch with Kevin to work this out with him. I have known Kevin for a long time and I consider him a great moderator and we have worked several situations before.
In this case, however, I believe that my message about finding together the best way to deal with these issues was sent is a way that may have felt as me questioning Kevin's ability as moderator, or the right of the Chinese forum to use the English language in their forum.
I want to make clear that this is not the case. Kevin is a great moderator and of course English can be used in this forum.
I believe the site needs a better definition of the way this rule is to be applied, probably with different criteria for the common forums (where English is the official language) and the non-English ones (where the approach should be more open).
I have asked my friend Kevin to reconsider his announced resignation. I told Kevin that the site needs him, and in particular this Chinese forum needs him. We exchanged several emails and I believe we overcame all the gaps (we translators are bridge builder after all) and I hope he will keep his current assigment.
Thanks for the great feedback provided in this thread, it will be very useful to define this policy at a site-wide level.
Kind regards to all,
Enrique Cavalitto
Community manager ▲ Collapse
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 11:54
English to Chinese
+ ...
| ¡Hola Enrique! | Dec 29, 2006 |
Enrique wrote:
I believe the site needs a better definition of the way this rule is to be applied, probably with different criteria for the common forums (where English is the official language) and the non-English ones (where the approach should be more open).
For sure, the definition for non-English forums shall be more open, since we are translators and each of us shall be good in at least two, if not more, languages. English is almost a must for a freelance translator to survive. Why not using English in non-English forums? We do feel the necessity of using English in Chinese forum, because there are some interesting translation issues which cannot be discussed without English.
As to other languages appearing in Chinese forum, I personally have no problem with them, so long as rough translations are provided. If not, there are always ways to figure out the contents for the purpose of communication. I have learned several languages, but I don't even master Chinese when it comes to certain fineness. When I need to make a point sometimes, it may happen that quotes from other languages could be of use. In those cases, I usually try to make rough translations for colleagues who might not be familiar with those languages. This practice may be all right. However, to ban totally languages other than Chinese from non-English forums doesn't make much sense for us translators. It doesn't make much sense as well when it comes to discussions of literary translation. In these cases, we need at least two languages.
¡Te deseo un año prospero de 2007!
Best regards,
Wenjer H. Leuschel
Freelance PM/Translator in Taiwan
Republic of China
[Edited at 2006-12-29 10:03]
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 20:54
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The current general guideline perhaps should be amended. | Dec 29, 2006 |
Dear Enrique,
I did not mean to cause so many disturbances to you and keep you stay late last night. Thank you for your attention and understanding of my frustrations. I also apologize for making my beloved translators concerned.
Back to the old topic again. Sorry I have to break my suggestion earlier and talk about this again, because it is on my chest. I heard from our moderators mentioning if a cultural factor played a role in this case. I thought of it, and could no... See more Dear Enrique,
I did not mean to cause so many disturbances to you and keep you stay late last night. Thank you for your attention and understanding of my frustrations. I also apologize for making my beloved translators concerned.
Back to the old topic again. Sorry I have to break my suggestion earlier and talk about this again, because it is on my chest. I heard from our moderators mentioning if a cultural factor played a role in this case. I thought of it, and could not think of any. I hope my fellow translators can dive in if I missed anything. As far as I can think of, it is all about how efficient one wants to communicate with the group and how the user wants to be labeled or identified, keeping in mind that the Chinese language is the official language for the people in China, but not all the people in China using Chinese language in their daily life, because each of the 56 nationalities has their own language, even though all the people there being identified as Chinese. To make the situation more complicated, we have the differences of Traditional Chinese characters and Chinese Simplified characters as well as the versions with regional dialects involved, the methods and skill level of inputting the characters, and other historical and political messes. It seems to be more sensible that the forum should give a more relaxed tolerance about the language that can be used under the general guideline of designated language.
Different from French or other languages in the world, the Chinese people never have the concern of the shrinkage of the Chinese user base or the Chinese language being replaced by other dominant languages, such as English. I personally have trouble to understand the complain itself, because he/she is also a translator and should understand that one language is not always enough for expressing or describing the subject among the users who are so diverse in this forum. This translator should not be so offended unless he/she did not post one single message in the languages besides Chinese. I have not found such a translator here. As for myself, English is the working language for moderators, and I have to leave the track record for the site staff to see what I wrote. I cannot imagine if a complaint such as this one being brought to the attention of the Management, should they come to the complainer and ask for a translation?
So, just use Chinese and set it as a mono-lingual forum won’t cut it. If this becomes a bothersome concern and the complainer’s intention was purely for helping this site to be a workplace for everyone, I mean all those who are interested in China and Chinese language, I think the current general guideline perhaps can be amended, or simply leave it AS IS because it is only a suggested guideline.
Kevin
[修改时间: 2006-12-29 20:01] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Forum for Ethnic Chinese and Chinese minorities only | Dec 29, 2006 |
This forum could be for ethnic Chinese and Chinese minorities only - an 'enclave' within Proz. That would be quite valid. University and school communities often do this - have dedicated facilities for minority ethnic groups. That way the non-Chinese peers would know where they stood, and there would be less 'creative tension' in this community.
Communications between the Chinese and the non-Chinese are sometimes sensitive, to the point where miscommunications and misunderstanding... See more This forum could be for ethnic Chinese and Chinese minorities only - an 'enclave' within Proz. That would be quite valid. University and school communities often do this - have dedicated facilities for minority ethnic groups. That way the non-Chinese peers would know where they stood, and there would be less 'creative tension' in this community.
Communications between the Chinese and the non-Chinese are sometimes sensitive, to the point where miscommunications and misunderstandings easily arise. In my opinion, some peers are partisan. Sometimes bad motives are imputed to the 'others' unreasonably. Sometimes the 'others' are denigrated. Is it worth-while to persevere with the cross-cultural contacts, or should we give up.
In my experience it is rare to have an international community comprising many nationalities, such as Proz. University International Clubs for foreign and local students at many of the NZ universities died off and were replaced by national clubs.
As far as I know it is even not all that common to have pan-Chinese groups. My city has different groups amongst the Chinese immigrant population: the Singaporeans, Malaysians, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, and PRC Chinese, but it does have the Chinese Lions which crosses all groups (and speaks in English and Chinese).
Some of the peers are nationalists and proud of it. They sometimes become political. However, Proz seems to be an internationalist project. Some of the peers are internationalists. I suppose this can become political too. Others are primarily interested in translation and language, in particular the Chinese language. Perhaps these people are not political and don't like politics. I suppose it is a matter of keeping perspective, and not using the forum for political purposes, something easier said than done.
IMO it would make the Mods' job easier if this forum were for Chinese only. I am sure it is a difficult job at present - to deal with all the sensitivities and to mediate and moderate for such a diverse community.
Here I am, a non-Chinese making all kinds of suggestions about the Chinese forum. Is that legitimate? Is it meddling? Let the management committee judge. ▲ Collapse
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 22:54
Chinese to English
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| Don't agree with this idea at all | Dec 29, 2006 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
This forum could be for ethnic Chinese and Chinese minorities only - an 'enclave' within Proz. That would be quite valid. University and school communities often do this - have dedicated facilities for minority ethnic groups. That way the non-Chinese peers would know where they stood, and there would be less 'creative tension' in this community.
I don't know. That sounds like segregation to me. If that's the direction this forum is taking, you can certainly count me out.
Lesley, shouldn't we try to be more united and inclusive, instead of divisive? Do you yourself plan on being a part of this "ethnic Chinese enclave" that you are proposing?
I'm totally baffled.
[Edited at 2006-12-30 03:37]
| | | | | Translation always involves two languages | Dec 30, 2006 |
wherestip wrote: Lesley McLachlan wrote:
This forum could be for ethnic Chinese and Chinese minorities only - an 'enclave' within Proz. That would be quite valid. University and school communities often do this - have dedicated facilities for minority ethnic groups. That way the non-Chinese peers would know where they stood, and there would be less 'creative tension' in this community.
I don't know. That sounds like segregation to me. If that's the direction this forum is taking, you can certainly count me out. Lesley, shouldn't we try to be more united and inclusive, instead of divisive? Do you yourself plan on being a part of this "ethnic Chinese enclave" that you are proposing? I'm totally baffled. [Edited at 2006-12-30 03:37]
Translation always involves two languages and I do not understand why any translators would want to have a monolingual group in a translation community.
| | | | | I would respect it and stay out. | Dec 30, 2006 |
wherestip wrote: Lesley McLachlan wrote:
This forum could be for ethnic Chinese and Chinese minorities only - an 'enclave' within Proz. That would be quite valid. University and school communities often do this - have dedicated facilities for minority ethnic groups. That way the non-Chinese peers would know where they stood, and there would be less 'creative tension' in this community.
I don't know. That sounds like segregation to me. If that's the direction this forum is taking, you can certainly count me out. Lesley, shouldn't we try to be more united and inclusive, instead of divisive? Do you yourself plan on being a part of this "ethnic Chinese enclave" that you are proposing? I'm totally baffled. [Edited at 2006-12-30 03:37]
You ask for my position. If the Chinese peers decided to form their own community I would respect that and stay out. If they wished to invite me in as a guest or outsider, I would not accept the invitation. I am only prepared to participate in a 'Chinese forum' on equal terms as a peer.
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