| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | TCR list to be deleted / moved Thread poster: ivw (X)
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gianfranco 
Brazil
Local time: 11:24
Member (2001)
English to Italian
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| What the fee will pay | Apr 5, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-05 04:06, ivw wrote:
One could argue that 12 bucks a year is close to nothing. But when it comes to a list of over 1600 members...
So, what\'s your point?
First, it was a matter of principle, now it is unfair for a person to charge so many people and to have her time paid.
Note that 1600 members (not all of them will become paying m... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-05 04:06, ivw wrote:
One could argue that 12 bucks a year is close to nothing. But when it comes to a list of over 1600 members...
So, what\'s your point?
First, it was a matter of principle, now it is unfair for a person to charge so many people and to have her time paid.
Note that 1600 members (not all of them will become paying members) are the result of 2-3 years of hard and unpaid work, and you are gliding over the costs involved in setting up the new site (high quality and fast access), software, etc...
In my opinion, a list like TCR is very helpful for freelance translators and in general it works towards raising the standards in the translation business.
For the same reasons, many shady businesses have all reasons to see TCR failing,
as their dubious practices have been exposed and they will never have
an easy life if TCR expands and grows.
The best way to help those dubious business is to not support TCR, open half a dozen of imitation lists, dilute the efforts and generally oppose any improvement.
I\'m not convinced about your \'principles\' if you start complaining about other people\'s deserved earnings.
Are you just simply ungrateful, is this envy, or there are other reasons?
Gianfranco
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-05 16:02 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | FrancescoP
United States
Local time: 07:24
English to Italian
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| On TCR policy and fares... | Apr 5, 2002 |
Sorry guys! I am not a TCR \"fanatic\", I was told of its existence only a few months ago and used it a couple of times ever since.
The last time I used TCR list was today in the morning. I checked the name of an Agency that contacted me asking to fill in a questionnaire and to do a short test. It was from a company located in a middle east country and so I was a little bit suspicious... It turned out to be one of those company you\'d better stay clear of...
... See more Sorry guys! I am not a TCR \"fanatic\", I was told of its existence only a few months ago and used it a couple of times ever since.
The last time I used TCR list was today in the morning. I checked the name of an Agency that contacted me asking to fill in a questionnaire and to do a short test. It was from a company located in a middle east country and so I was a little bit suspicious... It turned out to be one of those company you\'d better stay clear of...
Therefore, I didn\'t do the test and didn\'t fill in the questionnaire either. Today, I can say TCR saved me at least a couple of hours time that I was about to waste on a lousy test. Whereas thanks to TCR I will dedicate the time I saved to the persons I love...
Sorry for my short excursus, I\'ll go straight to the point.
Everybody here is talking about money, nobody is talking about the work a list such as TCR requires to survive and to turn into a useful resource for translators and not just a \"black list\" or a \"gossip place\".
I believe that there is a lot of work to do to take care of a list such as TCR.
Subscribers to the list aren\'t automatically accepted. First, their identity is to be verified. I think Laura checks their e-mail address or something.
Moreover, I believe that she also checks all messages very carefully before publishing them. This is to avoid legal problems and also to avoid that members start squabbling like fishwifes (with all the due respect for all fishermen… eh eh eh).
I am pretty sure that if only Laura told people how is a standard day in her life as a TCR Moderator the 12 dollars per year we are talking about would seem not fair enough…
Cheers,
FP
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-06 10:53 ] ▲ Collapse
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yes, not very much, but multiply that by 1600. Now, I don\'t care about the money, my fear is that by becoming a pay list the group will shrink considerably and without enough members the list won\'t be as useful. Also, if we decide not to sign up, we will lose the right to search the archives, to which we have all contributed. I think there are plenty of free hosts out there and don\'t understand the move at all. Even the PP (payment practice) list is free now, after shedding many many members ... See more yes, not very much, but multiply that by 1600. Now, I don\'t care about the money, my fear is that by becoming a pay list the group will shrink considerably and without enough members the list won\'t be as useful. Also, if we decide not to sign up, we will lose the right to search the archives, to which we have all contributed. I think there are plenty of free hosts out there and don\'t understand the move at all. Even the PP (payment practice) list is free now, after shedding many many members after becoming a pay list. The move is a great risk for Laura, but, as she has reiterated many times in the past, she is the boss and she does what she likes.
Giovanni ▲ Collapse
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FrancescoP
United States
Local time: 07:24
English to Italian
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| 12$ is not an outrageous sum afterall ... | Apr 6, 2002 |
Yes, you\'re right Giovanni. Twelve dollars multiplied 1600 members is 19,200 USD. It looks a big deal!
And this arithmetic is the first thing TCR\'s members do when they hear about the change the list undergoing.
Let me do some further considerations:
1) You are not sure all 1600 members will join the list (and perhaps a couple of friends could share one membership...if everybody does so the initial sum of 19,200USD would be reduced... See more Yes, you\'re right Giovanni. Twelve dollars multiplied 1600 members is 19,200 USD. It looks a big deal!
And this arithmetic is the first thing TCR\'s members do when they hear about the change the list undergoing.
Let me do some further considerations:
1) You are not sure all 1600 members will join the list (and perhaps a couple of friends could share one membership...if everybody does so the initial sum of 19,200USD would be reduced to a mere 9,600USD).
2) It is true that the archive was built thanks to the contribution of all members. But this list was built also thanks to Laura\'s original idea and efforts. If she now feels like having a little reward for this, she is totally entitled to do it.
3) The risk is that the group will shrink considerably and therefore won\'t be as useful. Too true. The same would be if Laura decided she had enough and didn\'t moderate the list anymore. The list would be opened to morons and villains of all kinds. Thus, the number of members would certainly increase but the information gathered would be useless as well.
I believe that if Laura could tell us how much time she usually spends to take care of the list and if she could promise to members that she will not only improve software and hosting service but also the quality of the service provided everybody would be happy to pay such a small fee. TCR would become even more useful.
Regards,
FP ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Francesco, you took the words right out of my mouth | Apr 6, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-06 11:19, FrancescoP wrote:
The same would be if Laura decided she had enough and didn\'t moderate the list anymore.
| | | | | nobody is unreplaceable | Apr 6, 2002 |
Ted and David (Orpin) are doing a great job with the PP list, and it\'s free now. Sorry, but I don\'t agree. Laura has done a wonderful job with the TCR list, but the last step is too extreme and I\'m sure it will alienate a lot of members. FREE exchange of information is what we want, and paying for it is not the solution. Laura wants a reward? Fine. She has already set up a link for contributions and she has received plenty in the last few months. I don\'t buy the \"a more professional list\" ... See more Ted and David (Orpin) are doing a great job with the PP list, and it\'s free now. Sorry, but I don\'t agree. Laura has done a wonderful job with the TCR list, but the last step is too extreme and I\'m sure it will alienate a lot of members. FREE exchange of information is what we want, and paying for it is not the solution. Laura wants a reward? Fine. She has already set up a link for contributions and she has received plenty in the last few months. I don\'t buy the \"a more professional list\" argument. The list is great as it is now, because everybody is free to take part. As I said before, it\'s not the money, but the way the list has been taken off our hands with very little consultation. The polls are a joke, since many, many people can\'t access them. And the private messages don\'t really count. We don\'t see them. That\'s what Laura says, and although I tend to believe her, saying \"I\'ve got lots of support\", is not quite the same.
If I have to, I will pay the fee. It\'s not the money, it\'s the principle.
Giovanni ▲ Collapse
| | | | Peter Erfurt
Denmark
Local time: 16:24
English to Danish
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| YOU can really make a difference right now | Apr 6, 2002 |
Hi all,
I\'m Peter (Erfurt), the moderator of one of the new free payment practices lists (TransPayment) that has been created after Laura\'s decision to make TCR a paid list.
Many translators, especially from Eastern Europe, has expressed their problems with payment, and for nearly all Europeans it\'s not only USD 12 per year, but also loads of bank charges for transferring payments, making foreign checks etc.
But my main motive fo... See more Hi all,
I\'m Peter (Erfurt), the moderator of one of the new free payment practices lists (TransPayment) that has been created after Laura\'s decision to make TCR a paid list.
Many translators, especially from Eastern Europe, has expressed their problems with payment, and for nearly all Europeans it\'s not only USD 12 per year, but also loads of bank charges for transferring payments, making foreign checks etc.
But my main motive for setting up a free list is: I strongly believe in the original idea with the Internet - a FREE multicultural forum for the people of the world to communicate in - regardless of race, religion or money.
In only 2-3 days we have reached a massive 319 subscribers on the new list. This is quite extraordinary for any list on the net! I know TCR has 1600+ members - but it has taken 2 years to get to this point.
For TransPayment to become a true alternative to the paid-for solution, we need you all to sign in - if only as \"lurkers\" first - the volume is so important for the succes of the list. TransPayment is hosted on Tropica.com, where none of the problems that has haunted Yahoo is present - it has an easy-to-use interface, and things run smooth and quick.
The list is moderated in a friendly, but firm tone, and besides the payment QA\'s we issue a monthly newsletter with articles from translators around the world about payments and solutions in their local countries.
Please subscribe now by sending an empty email to:
[email protected]
You will receive a \"one-click\" subscription email from Topica, and you are on. It\'s free, and it\'s a usefull tool.
Please do it now, before you forget - this is an instance, where you really make a difference.
Kind regards
Peter
Moderator
The TransPayment list ▲ Collapse
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williamson (X)
Local time: 16:24
Dutch to English
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| Segmentation. | Apr 7, 2002 |
To start with: All we need to do is just ask \"the usual\" about agency/potential (direct) customer XYZ and your list will grow until a point that maybe within two years...
Thanks for the alternative. Now, it will be segmentation and differentiation which are going to determine which list is most successful
| | | | ivw (X)
English to Hungarian
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TOPIC STARTER | to Gianfranco | Apr 7, 2002 |
Quote:
I\'m not convinced about your \'principles\' if you start complaining about other people\'s deserved earnings.
Are you just simply ungrateful, is this envy, or there are other reasons?
Gianfranco
If you read my message(s) more carefully, you would have the answer, but I\'m happy to repeat it for you: I had no objections to Laura receiving donations for her time; my obj... See more Quote:
I\'m not convinced about your \'principles\' if you start complaining about other people\'s deserved earnings.
Are you just simply ungrateful, is this envy, or there are other reasons?
Gianfranco
If you read my message(s) more carefully, you would have the answer, but I\'m happy to repeat it for you: I had no objections to Laura receiving donations for her time; my objection is her forcing her decision on list members and changing a voluntary donation to a required fee to retain access to the list. This changes the list to a commercial enterprise based upon list members’ freely given knowledge.
This also contradicts what she had promised the members at the beginning (when Karin Adamczyk was so kind as to provide TCR with the archives of her list):
Quote:
\"We are lucky that Karin has been so generous in giving us access to what she has accumulated over the last years. [...] But, this will not change OUR list at all and all archives that we accumulate will be freely accessed at no charge by all the members of this list.\"
The notion of \"our list\" and \"free access\" is obviously gone - and that is my major complaint...
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-07 23:24 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | One last word... | Apr 9, 2002 |
Folks,
I have decided that I am not going to be responding to these accusations any longer, HOWEVER, I have copied from the website that I have set up to give general information on the future of the TCR list (http://www.americantranslatorsgroup.com/TCR_Info_page.html) the following passage (that has been there all along):
Below is the... See more Folks,
I have decided that I am not going to be responding to these accusations any longer, HOWEVER, I have copied from the website that I have set up to give general information on the future of the TCR list (http://www.americantranslatorsgroup.com/TCR_Info_page.html) the following passage (that has been there all along):
Below is the information you need to make your contribution to the new list:
Suggested donation amount:
$12.00USD
If you cannot pay the $12.00:
$10.00USD
If you cannot pay anything: Contact Laura at:
[email protected]
Anyone wishing to donate a larger sum to benefit others are encouraged to do so.
Just so we are clear on the truth of the matter of this new list that is being widely advertised by UNAUTHORIZED persons as a \"PAYING\" list.
Well, it is, but only if you want to.
Laura
Moderator
TCR List
▲ Collapse
| | | | ivw (X)
English to Hungarian
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TOPIC STARTER | Wwwabbbittt sseeasonn!!!!!! | Apr 19, 2002 |
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John Kinory (X)
Local time: 15:24
English to Hebrew
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| The lady doth protest too much | Apr 19, 2002 |
- or, to use another well-known phrase, the proof of the rabbit is in the eating  ))
Laura can protest all she wants to about the absence of a requirement to pay, and about the democratic nature of her list (as she is doing right now on TCR). I have been expelled, but no fewer than 6 of her loyal members are regularly forwarding her postings to me ))
Fact:
... See more - or, to use another well-known phrase, the proof of the rabbit is in the eating ))
Laura can protest all she wants to about the absence of a requirement to pay, and about the democratic nature of her list (as she is doing right now on TCR). I have been expelled, but no fewer than 6 of her loyal members are regularly forwarding her postings to me ))
Fact:
Laura imposed a compulsory payment policy, after a \'consultation\' period lasting all of 36 hours.
Fact:
Members who queried this, received abusive messages on-list. These were not censored.
Fact:
Members who objected to the abuse (of other members), got dissed.
Non-TCR members who still doubt the above, are welcome to contact me privately for examples.
_________________
Maya Jurt says below:
\"I do not mean our famous member above my posting who loves to create havoc in proZ heaven and has the time to send hatemail to everyone who is a \"non native\" and does not agree with him. He was expelled before, for reasons well known\".
This is a lie. I repeat: this is a lie. I was expelled by Laura for objecting to the abuse heaped on members who dared criticise her proposal.
If Maya Jurt can prove that I was \'expelled before, for reasons well known\', let her produce her proof. She cannot, because she is lying.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-30 22:59 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maya Jurt
Switzerland
Local time: 16:24
French to German
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| A very personal point of view | Apr 30, 2002 |
for those who are still following that thread (if there are any...)
TRC and Laura\'s problems, the members\' problem with the future of that list, have nothing to do with money. It has to do with good will going wrong, for lack of communication. That is the way I see it.
I joined TCR as soon as I heard of it. And was pleased by the easy going exchange among the members, the comments, the humour, the research done, the memories recounted. Laura was tolera... See more for those who are still following that thread (if there are any...)
TRC and Laura\'s problems, the members\' problem with the future of that list, have nothing to do with money. It has to do with good will going wrong, for lack of communication. That is the way I see it.
I joined TCR as soon as I heard of it. And was pleased by the easy going exchange among the members, the comments, the humour, the research done, the memories recounted. Laura was tolerant and very patient with all of us, could show an iron hand and will when it was necessary. And she worked endlessy for this site and therefore for all who joined. Personal contacts in this anonymous Internet world.
I was not astonished when a member proposed that we should - together with the move away from Yahoo - decide a small retribution for Laura. 10 or 12 dollars per member: you don\'t hit the jackpot with the sum of it. I did not ask any question, I was the first member to pay, or so I was told.
Some members started questioning. Laura, taken in by the general applause she got first, seems completely surprised by the slightest criticism. Those reactions overthrew that applecart for her. She was moving house at the same time. Can you imagine the stress?
She cut out the critical voices who meant well but took for granted that when a question was put up for general discussion, they had their say. I do not mean our famous member above my posting who loves to create havoc in proZ heaven and has the time to send hatemail to everyone who is a \"non native\" and does not agree with him. He was expelled before, for reasons well known. I mean members disagreeing because they wanted to know more. The words may have been a bit harsh, and Laura took it as a personal affront. But forgive me, Laura, you do not take a poll with the answers of 10 % per cent of the members as general approval.
When she threatened a member I happened to have had a heated exchange with (a very knowledgable person with a trade union background)I asked her to reconsider. I did not even get an answer. And the member was expelled. That person has moved to other sites, and so have I. Quietely, without making a fuss. I just unsubscribed, regretting that Laura got trapped. Lack of communication.
I hope the move will take place, things will got back to normal and Laura will be able to continue and be rewarded (oh so little) for her efforts.
Because under normal circumstances, she is a great lady. Don\'t forget that. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Monique Marquard (X)
Local time: 16:24
Danish to Norwegian
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| Could we leave out personal attacks? | May 1, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-30 20:04, mayagyan wrote:
She cut out the critical voices who meant well but took for granted that when a question was put up for general discussion, they had their say. I do not mean our famous member above my posting who loves to create havoc in proZ heaven and has the time to send hatemail to everyone who is a \"non native\" and does not agree with him. He was expelled before, for reasons well known.
... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-30 20:04, mayagyan wrote:
She cut out the critical voices who meant well but took for granted that when a question was put up for general discussion, they had their say. I do not mean our famous member above my posting who loves to create havoc in proZ heaven and has the time to send hatemail to everyone who is a \"non native\" and does not agree with him. He was expelled before, for reasons well known. I mean members disagreeing because they wanted to know more.
This is mud slinging, Maya, and not relevant to this discussion. I thought you were against mud slinging - re. your comments in the discussion \"Mud slinging on Kudoz questions\" (incidentally, the comments the translator you\'re referring to made in the mud slinging discussion do not appear to be in line with the picture you\'re trying to create of him here). In any case, my point is that I don\'t understand why you feel mud slinging should by avoided in connection with KudoZ questions, but not here. ▲ Collapse
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