carly kelly (asker) Nov 10, 2009:

Many thanks for your time and efforts! In view of recent developments in the Giovannin debate I think it is fair to say that he indeed "suffered insult..." but to his wife/marriage. I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt, despite the lengthy tric trac-ing upstairs ;) Thanks again Sarah and Raffaella. Michael, I hope your builder showed up in the end!

Raffaella Panigada Nov 10, 2009:

Testo a fronte Ho trovato una versione con testo a fronte (un po' edulcorata):

http://books.google.it/books?id=wL9U8UPDeUEC&pg=PA319&lpg=PA...

Per quanto riguarda il "coucher" non credo ci siano dubbi!

Sarah Jane Webb Nov 10, 2009:

@ Raffaella sì, anch'io l'ho interpretata così. Penso che la frase in francese maccheronico sia volutamente ambigua: "moi je veux coucher avec elle"? oppure? E in Milanese cosa potrebbe voler dire, eventualmente?

Raffaella Panigada Nov 10, 2009:

Ciao Sarah, ma secondo te il "tric trac", il rumore che sente al piano di sopra è innocente? Non dura un po' troppo per essere solo il rumore di qualcuno che scende le scale? Io l'ho interpretato come: 1. il soldato gli chiede l'indirizzo, 2. sapendolo fuori va a casa sua, 3. quando Giovannin arriva a casa sente rumori "sospetti" e se lo vede sbucare, 4. come nulla fosse il soldato gli dice ha una moglie très jolie e che gli piacerebbe "approfondire" la conoscenza (ma non significa che ci si sia già intrattenuto in qualche modo...), 5. G. gli dice di andare fuori dai c.......i, 6. il francese pensa che gli abbia dato del c.......e e si azzuffano. Credo che il vedo-non vedo (ma immagino) contribuisca all'effetto comico.

Sarah Jane Webb Nov 10, 2009:

Carly from what I understand, Giovannin is hurt and insulted because the Frenchman, who then proceeded to beat him up, had said "moà ge voeu coccé cont ell", i.e. I want to sleep with her (Giovannin's wife).

Raffaella Panigada Nov 10, 2009:

Hi Carly, I took a look at the full version and, although I'm much better at understanding spoken Milanese than its written form, it appears that Giovannin catches his wife with another man (the soldier/policeman), or better, he catches him on his way out after being with his wife. In the dispute that follows (based on misunderstandings), he ends up being beaten and probably (not too sure of my own interpretation) arrested. So, I think it may be more correct to say that he "suffers a hard blow to/is hit hard in his marital/family affections". Sorry if my indication was misleading (teaches me never ever to use a 5), I still think that's the most obvious meaning of the expression, but considering the content of the poem I'd go with the "hit/blow" solution. I wouldn't look for something too poetic/elaborate because of the character's lack of depth. HTH

carly kelly (asker) Nov 10, 2009:

!! Am I to understand that his wife runs off with the policeman detaining him? Is that what actually happens?

Michael Korovkin Nov 10, 2009:

Boh, non lo so... maybe Per me, quando la moglie scappa via con lo sbirro che ti tiene sotto inchiesta, questo sì che esser offesi negli affetti famigliari! (Non fraintendermi – non mi è mai successo!). Quel che cerco di dire è che il fatto che qualcuno fece male a lui tramite i soui affetti famigliari, non significa necessariamente che fu offesa la famiglia stessa. Sto discutendo con la questione chiusa per puro amore solonico della verità... aspettando il muratore, che doveva presentarsi già un ora fa!!! Sono offeso nel mio affetto per i muratori!

carly kelly (asker) Nov 10, 2009:

Hi Michael I included my tentative version in my question, later confirmed by Raffaella and Sarah Jane. "...who suffered insult to his family"

Michael Korovkin Nov 10, 2009:

Carly, And what IS your own version? Just curious.

carly kelly (asker) Nov 9, 2009:

closing the question... I don't normally do this, but in this instance I'm closing without grading, as I opted for my own solution in the end. Thanks to everyone who answered/took part in the discussion!

Sarah Jane Webb Nov 6, 2009:

absolutely! parola di milanese adottiva ;-)

Raffaella Panigada Nov 6, 2009:

No worries... ...it's a 5 confidence level :-)

carly kelly (asker) Nov 6, 2009:

thanks Raffaella and Sarah Jane... for your vote of confidence. I wasn't entirely sure on this one and in fact some of the answers given are quite different from my interpretation. Cheers!

Sarah Jane Webb Nov 5, 2009:

as Raffaella says your interpretation is spot on. As is the Olde English wording imo.

Raffaella Panigada Nov 5, 2009:

Hi Carly, you got it right: first his family/loved ones get insulted, then he is wrongfully arrested. These must be part of the "disgrazie" mentioned in the title.