Oct 4, 2010 11:06
13 yrs ago
French term
donzel
French to English
Other
Genealogy
"Et haut et puissant seigneur Monseigneur Raymond Arnaud de Castaigner, chevalier ***donzel*** de Lauzerte seigneur d’Aucastels, Moncuq, la Valette, Sauveterre, Mondenar, Montesquiou-Durfort, la Montjoye, Campagnac, la Mothe-Durfort et autres places."
Proposed translations
(English)
5 +6 | squire | amanda solymosi |
3 +3 | squire | Catharine Cellier-Smart |
3 +2 | Lord-designate | Christopher Crockett |
3 +1 | master | Bourth (X) |
Proposed translations
+6
3 mins
Selected
squire
A society rank.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Alison Sabedoria (X)
12 mins
|
merci
|
|
agree |
mimi 254
35 mins
|
merci
|
|
agree |
Bourth (X)
: Though an alternative might be advisable to avoid confusion with the other meaning and origin of the word, écuyer.
36 mins
|
merci
|
|
agree |
B D Finch
1 hr
|
merci
|
|
agree |
Sylvie Chartier
1 hr
|
merci
|
|
agree |
Christopher Crockett
: Agree with Bourth --the two meanings of "squire" could lead to an incorrect interpretation.
3 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+1
1 hr
master
If ambiguity is an issue (I fear the proximity of chevalier in the text, and the apparent misuse or absence of punctuation will lead to "squire" being understood as the young fella that accompanies a knight, polishes his armour and otherwise does his bidding), then "master" (as in "master of the castle", only here "Master of Lauzerte") might be a way of getting round it.
At the same time, "master" is little different from "squire", being used as a term of address for a young man (as opposed to "mister") and also as an indication of (lower) authority.
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-10-04 12:15:52 GMT)
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It appears that in Switzerland, at least, a distinction was made between Ecuyer and Donzel "qui n'étoient pas donnés indifféremment à tous les Nobles" :
http://books.google.com/books?id=7ewOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR21&lpg=PR...
Le mot donzel, comme damoiseau en langue d'oïl et donzello en italien, vient du latin populaire dominicellus, diminutif de dominus, "seigneur"; il correspond à l'allemand Junker (du moyen haut allemand junc-herre, "jeune seigneur"; utilisé dans l'historiographie française au sens de "hobereau prussien"). Aux XIIe et XIIIe s., il s'appliquait à un jeune homme de la noblesse qui, contrairement à son père, n'avait pas encore été adoubé (Chevalerie). A partir du XIVe s., des ministériaux portèrent aussi ce titre, qui transmettait à leurs descendants une distinction nobiliaire et qui, de plus en plus, accompagnait le noble de sa jeunesse jusqu'à sa mort. Dès le XVe s., de riches conseillers bourgeois des villes alémaniques, qui avaient adopté le style de vie de la noblesse en même temps qu'ils en acquéraient les seigneuries, prirent le titre de Junker, lequel devint courant à la fin du XVIe s. dans des familles dirigeantes (patriciens, aristocrates des villes corporatives, détenteurs de seigneuries dans les Grisons), mais aussi chez les grands marchands saint-gallois. Les membres de cette classe étaient souvent officiers au service étranger, entrepreneurs militaires, ou faisaient une carrière dans les charges publiques, quand ils ne séjournaient pas à la campagne dans leur manoir familial. Le terme de Junker apparaît dans diverses appellations moqueuses, contrepartie d'une certaine jalousie des inférieurs: Bettel- und Habermus-Junker (mendiant et mangeur de gruau, pour un donzel appauvri) et Jünkerlin (diminutif) sont attestés à Lucerne en 1615; à Zurich, jusqu'au XIXe s., on traitait de Stadt-Junker ou de Stude-Junker celui qui affectait la distinction. En français, seul reste usité le féminin "donzelle", avec un sens dépréciatif. Depuis le XVe s., Junker est aussi un nom de famille en Haute-Argovie, à Soleure et à Rapperswil (SG).
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/f/F25735.php [Dictionnaire historique de la SUISSE]
At the same time, "master" is little different from "squire", being used as a term of address for a young man (as opposed to "mister") and also as an indication of (lower) authority.
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-10-04 12:15:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
It appears that in Switzerland, at least, a distinction was made between Ecuyer and Donzel "qui n'étoient pas donnés indifféremment à tous les Nobles" :
http://books.google.com/books?id=7ewOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR21&lpg=PR...
Le mot donzel, comme damoiseau en langue d'oïl et donzello en italien, vient du latin populaire dominicellus, diminutif de dominus, "seigneur"; il correspond à l'allemand Junker (du moyen haut allemand junc-herre, "jeune seigneur"; utilisé dans l'historiographie française au sens de "hobereau prussien"). Aux XIIe et XIIIe s., il s'appliquait à un jeune homme de la noblesse qui, contrairement à son père, n'avait pas encore été adoubé (Chevalerie). A partir du XIVe s., des ministériaux portèrent aussi ce titre, qui transmettait à leurs descendants une distinction nobiliaire et qui, de plus en plus, accompagnait le noble de sa jeunesse jusqu'à sa mort. Dès le XVe s., de riches conseillers bourgeois des villes alémaniques, qui avaient adopté le style de vie de la noblesse en même temps qu'ils en acquéraient les seigneuries, prirent le titre de Junker, lequel devint courant à la fin du XVIe s. dans des familles dirigeantes (patriciens, aristocrates des villes corporatives, détenteurs de seigneuries dans les Grisons), mais aussi chez les grands marchands saint-gallois. Les membres de cette classe étaient souvent officiers au service étranger, entrepreneurs militaires, ou faisaient une carrière dans les charges publiques, quand ils ne séjournaient pas à la campagne dans leur manoir familial. Le terme de Junker apparaît dans diverses appellations moqueuses, contrepartie d'une certaine jalousie des inférieurs: Bettel- und Habermus-Junker (mendiant et mangeur de gruau, pour un donzel appauvri) et Jünkerlin (diminutif) sont attestés à Lucerne en 1615; à Zurich, jusqu'au XIXe s., on traitait de Stadt-Junker ou de Stude-Junker celui qui affectait la distinction. En français, seul reste usité le féminin "donzelle", avec un sens dépréciatif. Depuis le XVe s., Junker est aussi un nom de famille en Haute-Argovie, à Soleure et à Rapperswil (SG).
http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/f/F25735.php [Dictionnaire historique de la SUISSE]
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Christopher Crockett
: I've never come across the term, but you are right about the "chevalier" leading to a misreading of "squire." Thanks for the origin of "junker."
1 hr
|
+3
4 mins
squire
"...close ranks against the intrusion of new men or creditors. They insisted on noble birth as a condition for knighthood, reserving the designation of “squire” (or donzel, in the south) for those of noble birth awaiting or postponing the expensive dubbing (adoubement). At the upper extreme, a noble elite, the..."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/169218/donzel
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Donzel
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Note added at 1 hr (2010-10-04 12:20:35 GMT)
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other possibilities :
thane - an aristocratic retainer of a king or nobleman in Anglo-Saxon England
or
armiger - in high and late medieval England, the word referred to an esquire attendant upon a knight, but bearing his own unique armorial device.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Alison Sabedoria (X)
11 mins
|
thank you
|
|
agree |
Bourth (X)
: Though an alternative might be advisable to avoid confusion with the other meaning and origin of the word, écuyer.
35 mins
|
thank you
|
|
agree |
B D Finch
: Definitely not "thane", which is too Anglo-Saxon (i.e. pre-Conquest), or Scottish (i.e. clan).
1 hr
|
thank you
|
|
neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: Agree with Bourth --the two meanings of "squire" could lead to an incorrect interpretation.
3 hrs
|
which is why I've proposed alternatives
|
+2
3 hrs
Lord-designate
I'm still concerned about how it might be that Ray is not (yet) Lord of Lauzarete, when he is clearly old enough to be formally invested with the other seigneuries mentioned. He's not "master" in the sense of being a "[very] young man," but he has some sort of power/claim over this place. The only thing I can think of is that he is the potential Lord of it, but has not yet --for whatever reason-- been formally invested with it by whatever Overlord might be the _capitalis dominus_. Southern France had a variety of customs and laws which were quite different from those in the North --and many of which went back to Roman times. "Lord-designate" is the best, feeble attempt I can come up with to give a sense of this intermediate position he seems to have held viz-a-viz this place.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-10-04 14:35:32 GMT)
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christ
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-10-04 14:37:59 GMT)
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Of course, since the word is in the OED, you could just punt the thing and leave the original --let your reader dig up the archaic meaning for himself.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-10-04 14:35:32 GMT)
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christ
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Note added at 3 hrs (2010-10-04 14:37:59 GMT)
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Of course, since the word is in the OED, you could just punt the thing and leave the original --let your reader dig up the archaic meaning for himself.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Bourth (X)
: Even in the SOED, now I look. Glad to see I'm not the only one using italics etc... and sometimes screwing up! ;-)
23 mins
|
So *you're* the one who tempted me into screwing up. Thanks for that.
|
|
agree |
Alison Sabedoria (X)
: This could well be the clearest
3 hrs
|
Thanks, Worde.
|
Discussion
A search on "donzel" in the Nobiliaire universel yields another hit:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DbEUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA197&lpg=P...
In any case, our Ray was surely no kid --he was the invested Lord of multiple fiefs. Just not (yet) Lauzerte, which may not have had a "Lord," only a donzel, perhaps because it was a "bastide" or new town/fortified village only created in 1241.
http://www.frenchentree.com/france-lot-quercy-tourism-leisur...
These New Towns created by special charters had their "liberties" specifically spelled out by the Overlord of the place (in this case, the Count of Toulouse), who may have then given part of his power away in fief to another local noble. I still don't like this idea of "donzel" being a special species of "Lord," however.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montcuq
And yes, the q is pronounced. I wonder in which way David Garnett had it.
elsewhere we have - and I certainly hope that's a silent q - donzel de Moncuq : [not cut-and-pastable]
http://books.google.com/books?id=DbEUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA197&lpg=P...
Since this guy is haut et puissant seigneur it seems strange that he is but a donzel in the "young nobleman awaiting dubbing" sense, so I rather assume that as a title the qualification de donzel, as this document calls it, is an anomaly, something very specific to the region or, indeed, a handful of towns.
archic
Etymology:
[ad. It. donzello ‘a damosell, a batchelor; also a page, a squire, a waiter, a serving man’ (Florio) = Pr. donzel, Sp. doncel, OF. donzel, doncel, dancel young man:{em}late L. dom(i)nicell-us, dim. of dominus lord, master: cf. DAMOISEAU.]
A young gentleman not yet knighted, a squire, a page.