Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
where otherwise appears and whereso appearing
French translation:
sauf indication contraire et le cas échéant
Added to glossary by
Germaine
Oct 12, 2012 17:28
11 yrs ago
10 viewers *
English term
United States
where otherwise appears and whereso appearing
English to French
Other
Law (general)
I am a partner of the plaintiff in this action and the facts stated here are within my own knowledge save where otherwise appears and whereso appearing I believe the same to be true.
Proposed translations
(French)
| 4 | (sauf) indication contraire et le cas échéant |
Germaine
|
| 4 +3 | "and whereso appearing" is the term in dispute |
Attorney DC Bar
|
| 3 | voir ci-dessous |
Danièle Horta
|
Change log
Oct 17, 2012 13:32: Germaine Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
3 hrs
Selected
(sauf) indication contraire et le cas échéant
Je comprends :
[the facts stated here] Les faits dénoncés aux présentes
[are within my own knowledge] j’en ai eu personnellement connaissance
[save where otherwise appears] sauf si j’évoque le contraire
[and whereso appearing] et lorsque j’évoque le contraire
[I believe] je crois (que)
[the same] les faits dénoncés aux présentes
[to be true] sont vrais.
Ce qui donnerait quelque chose comme :
J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes, à moins d'indication au contraire et, le cas échéant, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour vrais.
Je trouve toutetois que le lien n'est pas évident entre "à moins d'indication contraire" et "le cas échéant" (i.e. au cas d'indication contraire). J'opterais donc plutôt pour quelque chose comme:
J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes et à défaut, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour vrais.
ou J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes et dans le cas d’une indication au contraire, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour vrais.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2012-10-13 14:18:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Si je comprends bien l’intervention de Tony, je crois qu’il faudrait revoir le rendu de la façon suivante :
[are within my own knowledge] j’en ai eu personnellement connaissance
[save where otherwise appears] sauf s’il ressort que ce n’est pas le cas
[and whereso appearing] et lorsqu’il ressort que ce n’est pas le cas…
Ce qui donnerait quelque chose comme :
J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes, sauf lorsque le contexte [indique] [laisse entendre] le contraire, et même alors, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour véridiques.
[the facts stated here] Les faits dénoncés aux présentes
[are within my own knowledge] j’en ai eu personnellement connaissance
[save where otherwise appears] sauf si j’évoque le contraire
[and whereso appearing] et lorsque j’évoque le contraire
[I believe] je crois (que)
[the same] les faits dénoncés aux présentes
[to be true] sont vrais.
Ce qui donnerait quelque chose comme :
J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes, à moins d'indication au contraire et, le cas échéant, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour vrais.
Je trouve toutetois que le lien n'est pas évident entre "à moins d'indication contraire" et "le cas échéant" (i.e. au cas d'indication contraire). J'opterais donc plutôt pour quelque chose comme:
J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes et à défaut, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour vrais.
ou J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes et dans le cas d’une indication au contraire, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour vrais.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2012-10-13 14:18:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Si je comprends bien l’intervention de Tony, je crois qu’il faudrait revoir le rendu de la façon suivante :
[are within my own knowledge] j’en ai eu personnellement connaissance
[save where otherwise appears] sauf s’il ressort que ce n’est pas le cas
[and whereso appearing] et lorsqu’il ressort que ce n’est pas le cas…
Ce qui donnerait quelque chose comme :
J’ai eu personnellement connaissance des faits dénoncés aux présentes, sauf lorsque le contexte [indique] [laisse entendre] le contraire, et même alors, je tiens les faits dénoncés pour véridiques.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: Nearly right, except for your reading of 'save where otherwise appears': unless something makes it clear that this is NOT personal experience, and even so, I believe it to be true. / Please see discussion above
1 hr
|
|
I don't follow you, Tony. It seems that we understand the same thing, yet, you don't agree to my reading of "save...". Please explain again where/how would I be wrong? You know how much I respect your inputs, so I am really curious here.
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
1 hr
Danièle Horta
France
France
Native in French
Specializes in field
France
Precise and concise
Native in: French
Works in: Portuguese to French, French to Portuguese
Related KudoZ points
:
37
voir ci-dessous
suggestion pour contourner la difficulté:
... et de même je suis convaincu que les autres faits énoncés par ailleurs sont l'expression de la vérité.
... et de même je suis convaincu que les autres faits énoncés par ailleurs sont l'expression de la vérité.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: I think that actually changes the meaning slightly; we need to read it as "...stated here are within my own knowledge ... and even if not, I believe the same to be true."
11 mins
|
|
Yes, I thought you would say that; thank you Tony!
|
|
| neutral |
Germaine
: Je comprends finalement l'intervention de Tony. Effectivement, il faut préciser qu'il n'a pas eu directement connaissance des "autres faits énoncés".
1 hr
|
|
oui, c'est vrai en effet!
|
+3
12 hrs
"and whereso appearing" is the term in dispute
The English phrase is pretty awful. This being said...
The declarant is saying that the facts stated in the affidavit are within his personal knowledge, except where he specifically says they are not, however, he believes even those facts that are not within his personal knowledge to be true.
This is because...
"and whereso appearing" refers back to "save where otherwise appears" and not to "the facts as stated herein". There are three reasons for this:
1. "save where otherwise appears" is the phrase immediately preceding "and whereso appearing" and there are no commas setting off "and whereso appearing"
2. The second phrase "and whereso appearing" uses the same verb ("appear") as the first phrase. This is deliberate and is designed to make it clear that it refers back to the immediately preceding phrase.
3. If facts are within your personal knowledge, you don't need to also say you BELIEVE them to be true. You KNOW them to be true.
The declarant is saying that the facts stated in the affidavit are within his personal knowledge, except where he specifically says they are not, however, he believes even those facts that are not within his personal knowledge to be true.
This is because...
"and whereso appearing" refers back to "save where otherwise appears" and not to "the facts as stated herein". There are three reasons for this:
1. "save where otherwise appears" is the phrase immediately preceding "and whereso appearing" and there are no commas setting off "and whereso appearing"
2. The second phrase "and whereso appearing" uses the same verb ("appear") as the first phrase. This is deliberate and is designed to make it clear that it refers back to the immediately preceding phrase.
3. If facts are within your personal knowledge, you don't need to also say you BELIEVE them to be true. You KNOW them to be true.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: Precisely my analysis too.
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Germaine
: et je comprends exactement la même chose, save that (if I understand correctly Tony's discussion) "where he specifically says there are not" has to be tempered by a more passive "where it looks like/transpires they are not"
8 hrs
|
|
"Appears" could mean either "are specifically identified as outside my personal knowledge" or "obviously could not be within my personal knowledge, (since I wasn't there, for example)..... in which case declarant merely believes them to be true.
|
|
| agree |
B D Finch
: I'd only query whether this affirmation relates to a statement given by himself, or whether it is an endorsement of a document produced by somebody else (possibly the plaintiff).
16 hrs
|
|
Seems to be declarant's own statement ("the facts stated HERE are within my own knowledge")... it would be unusual for "here" to refer to another document, especially since the facts stated in another doc are unlikely to be within his personal knowledge.
|
Discussion
Yes, I think we are on the same wavelength here, although oin first reading your answer, I wasn't so sure. This is the bit of your analysis that threw me:
[save where otherwise appears] sauf si j’évoque le contraire
[and whereso appearing] et lorsque j’évoque le contraire
I couldn't get my head round the idea that the rather passive 'otherwise appears' had become the more active « j'évoque », as in my mind, it was more likely to be other external factors doing the 'evoking' — IOW, it's not a case of my saying at a certain point "Of course, I wasn't acually there on that day, so I can't be sure", but rather of its being obvious from certain things in the written statement that I clearly couldn't have actually been present or whatever.
So I think Germaine has got right, though in all conscience, I won't 'agree', since I'm not qualified to judge the actual formulation used in FR. OK, I'll sometimes say if I feel something's quite wrong (with respect to the source text), but I'm more cautious about saying it's right — I hope you'll understand the diffidence of a non-native!
'and whereso appearing'