Jan 12, 2022 09:54
2 yrs ago
46 viewers *
French term
ou qui d'entre elles mieux le devra
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Freight-handling dispute.
"Sans approbation de la demande principale des sociétés AAA et BBB INC, mais au contraire, sous les plus expresses réserves de la contester en droit comme en fait :
CONDAMNER la société CCC INC à relever et garantir la société DDD de toutes les condamnations éventuellement prononcées à son encontre en principal, intérêts, frais, dommages et intérêts et accessoires,
CONDAMNER les sociétés AAA, BBB INC et CCC INC in solidum, ou qui d'entre elles mieux le devra, au paiement d'une somme de 5.000 € sur le fondement des dispositions de l'article 700 du Code de procédure civile,
CONDAMNER les sociétés AAA, BBB INC et CCC INC in solidum, ou qui d'entre elles mieux le devra, aux entiers dépens de l'instance."
From the context this might be saying "or which of the 3 most deserves (= has the greatest liability) to have to pay up", but firstly I'm not sure that that is indeed the meaning, and secondly I can't think of a plausible legal formula which might go with "jointly and severally".
"Sans approbation de la demande principale des sociétés AAA et BBB INC, mais au contraire, sous les plus expresses réserves de la contester en droit comme en fait :
CONDAMNER la société CCC INC à relever et garantir la société DDD de toutes les condamnations éventuellement prononcées à son encontre en principal, intérêts, frais, dommages et intérêts et accessoires,
CONDAMNER les sociétés AAA, BBB INC et CCC INC in solidum, ou qui d'entre elles mieux le devra, au paiement d'une somme de 5.000 € sur le fondement des dispositions de l'article 700 du Code de procédure civile,
CONDAMNER les sociétés AAA, BBB INC et CCC INC in solidum, ou qui d'entre elles mieux le devra, aux entiers dépens de l'instance."
From the context this might be saying "or which of the 3 most deserves (= has the greatest liability) to have to pay up", but firstly I'm not sure that that is indeed the meaning, and secondly I can't think of a plausible legal formula which might go with "jointly and severally".
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+3
51 mins
Selected
or such of them that should be so ordered
TO ORDER companies AAA, BBB INC and CCC INC jointly and severally, or such of them that should be so ordered, to pay.....
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Note added at 5 hrs (2022-01-12 15:40:22 GMT)
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ERRATUM:
or such of them AS should be so ordered
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Note added at 5 hrs (2022-01-12 15:40:22 GMT)
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ERRATUM:
or such of them AS should be so ordered
Note from asker:
Thanks. It this an interpretation, or have you come across this before? It's the "mieux" that causes a bit of confusion. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: The use of "whichever company" as an alternative?
2 hrs
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Thanks, yes that also works
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agree |
Conor McAuley
: 0 / Internet searches do indeed indicate that "as" is correct, and "that" is wrong.
4 hrs
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Thanks, I wondered whether "or such of them AS should be so ordered" is more gramatically correct // fair enough, I stand corrected
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neutral |
philgoddard
: I don't think this is quite right. You're implying that a separate order will be made, which doesn't appear to be the case.
6 hrs
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Nope, this is a plea in the alternative - all three to be held liable OR one or two of them, as the Court shall decide - nobody knows in advance how many orders will be made (e.g. claim dismissed against X, Y to pay nnn Euros, Z to pay bbb Euros...)
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agree |
Daryo
: could work, although the "mieux" part is only implied - as anyway only "those most responsible" would logically be expected to pay compensation.
1 day 13 hrs
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Thanks, I don't think "most" is implied at all and that is not what "mieux" means here
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
-2
7 hrs
or severally
I would translate "in solidum, ou qui d'entre elles mieux le devra" as "jointly or severally", where "severally" means "separately" - but you probably know that.
I think this is an unusual way of expressing a very common concept, as shown by the fact that it gets only five Google hits.
I think this is an unusual way of expressing a very common concept, as shown by the fact that it gets only five Google hits.
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
AllegroTrans
: This doesn't square with the alternative plea (i.e. either all three or one or two of them) // they are asking the Court to decide - in the alternative (all three OR one or two of them) - this is not reflected in your suggestion
15 mins
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I don't understand what you mean by "the alternative plea". They're asking for the money to be paid, and they don't care which company pays.
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disagree |
Daryo
: makes no sense
1 day 6 hrs
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+1
9 hrs
or (singling out) whichever one is likeliest to be held liable
A variation on a 'most liable' theme.
It's not one or more. It's just one company in the singular : 'le devra'. I had also been gravitating towards 'severally' but that is subsumed under in solidum: jointly and severally.
Otherwise I don't think mieux can be simply ignored and a 'split costs order' scenarion needs to be brought into the frame, even though not quite on all fours with this scenario.
Code de procédure civile fr.:
Art 696: La partie perdante est condamnée aux dépens, à moins que le juge, par décision motivée, n'en mette *la totalité ou une fraction à la charge d'une autre partie*.
Art 700 : Le juge tient compte de *l'équité ou de la situation économique* de la partie condamnée. .
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Note added at 9 hrs (2022-01-12 19:06:50 GMT)
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'split costs order' needs to be brought into the frame, ....
It's not one or more. It's just one company in the singular : 'le devra'. I had also been gravitating towards 'severally' but that is subsumed under in solidum: jointly and severally.
Otherwise I don't think mieux can be simply ignored and a 'split costs order' scenarion needs to be brought into the frame, even though not quite on all fours with this scenario.
Code de procédure civile fr.:
Art 696: La partie perdante est condamnée aux dépens, à moins que le juge, par décision motivée, n'en mette *la totalité ou une fraction à la charge d'une autre partie*.
Art 700 : Le juge tient compte de *l'équité ou de la situation économique* de la partie condamnée. .
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Note added at 9 hrs (2022-01-12 19:06:50 GMT)
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'split costs order' needs to be brought into the frame, ....
Example sentence:
As one might imagine, more often than not it is the other driver involved in your accident who is likeliest to be held liable.
Reference:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000042941174
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006411120/2010-12-12
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I can but agree with the use of "whichever" but I'd go with "most likely" or even "whichever shall be found to bear liability".
17 hrs
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Thanks and merci, Nikki
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neutral |
Daryo
: roughly the right idea, but using "likeliest" is unlikely to be the right "nuance". The court is asked to take a decision, and in that decision nothing will be "likely" - it will be a yes or no as to which ones of AAA BBB or ... are liable.
1 day 5 hrs
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Not so. In most jurisdictions, including the UK, US and France, Counsel is asked to estimate the likelihood of finding liability between mulitple defendants as a percentage - usually ranging on scale of between 10% and 90%.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Agree with Daryo about "yes or no"; Courts work on evidence, not likelihood and I don't think that is what "mieux" means//what I actually meant was that evidence alone is the basis of whether or not there is liability ab initio
1 day 18 hrs
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Not so. In most jurisdictions, including the UK, US and France, Counsel (including myself) is asked to estimate the likelihood of finding liability (in tort or for costs) between mulitple defendants as a percentage - usually ranging between 10% and 90%.
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-1
7 hrs
or such of them as shall be deemed most liable
Asker has told us this is part of a pleading, and it is apparently in support of DDD’s case.
The expression qui d'entre elles mieux le devra refers to a subsequent determination, following after the present case, in which the relative liability of the defendants will be established.
From DDD’s point of view, it is not necessary to establish the relative liability of AAA, BBB and CCC, since DDD is seeking only that all three of them be found liable in solidum for the entire value of the condemnation. Once that collective liability has been established by the court, precisely how the penalty is shared between AAA, BBB and CCC will depend on the contractual obligations binding on those three companies – details to which DDD (and indeed the court) may not have access.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2022-01-12 18:13:15 GMT)
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@Phil and AT
In the absence of full context, let's suppose that AAA is a supplier of goods, BBB is AAA's insurance provider, and CCC is a delivery service provider. Let's further suppose, that AAA sold goods to DDD, they were damaged when delivered, and DDD is seeking compensation for all his losses. A priori, any (or all) of the three companies might bear some responsibility/liability. The way the obligation to compensate is shared between them will depend on the terms of their bilateral contracts - and all three might be required to contribute to some extent. Eg: what if the liability of BBB (the insurer) is limited to the first Eur 2000 of any claim? What if CCC's liability is limited to 100% of the declared value of the goods, likely to fall well below the total value of DDD's claim for compensation in addition to that for loss of the goods themselves (principal, intérêts, frais, dommages et intérêts et accessoires)?
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Note added at 9 hrs (2022-01-12 19:49:59 GMT)
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in solidum vs. jointly and severally
This webref sheds useful light on the terms used in the ST and in some of the answers:
https://partiels-droit.com/obligation-in-solidum/
I venture to suggest that it supports the idea that DDD is asking the court only to determine the total amount of compensation, without going into the nitty-gritty of who has to pay (AAA, BBB and/or CCC) and in what proportion.
The expression qui d'entre elles mieux le devra refers to a subsequent determination, following after the present case, in which the relative liability of the defendants will be established.
From DDD’s point of view, it is not necessary to establish the relative liability of AAA, BBB and CCC, since DDD is seeking only that all three of them be found liable in solidum for the entire value of the condemnation. Once that collective liability has been established by the court, precisely how the penalty is shared between AAA, BBB and CCC will depend on the contractual obligations binding on those three companies – details to which DDD (and indeed the court) may not have access.
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Note added at 8 hrs (2022-01-12 18:13:15 GMT)
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@Phil and AT
In the absence of full context, let's suppose that AAA is a supplier of goods, BBB is AAA's insurance provider, and CCC is a delivery service provider. Let's further suppose, that AAA sold goods to DDD, they were damaged when delivered, and DDD is seeking compensation for all his losses. A priori, any (or all) of the three companies might bear some responsibility/liability. The way the obligation to compensate is shared between them will depend on the terms of their bilateral contracts - and all three might be required to contribute to some extent. Eg: what if the liability of BBB (the insurer) is limited to the first Eur 2000 of any claim? What if CCC's liability is limited to 100% of the declared value of the goods, likely to fall well below the total value of DDD's claim for compensation in addition to that for loss of the goods themselves (principal, intérêts, frais, dommages et intérêts et accessoires)?
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Note added at 9 hrs (2022-01-12 19:49:59 GMT)
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in solidum vs. jointly and severally
This webref sheds useful light on the terms used in the ST and in some of the answers:
https://partiels-droit.com/obligation-in-solidum/
I venture to suggest that it supports the idea that DDD is asking the court only to determine the total amount of compensation, without going into the nitty-gritty of who has to pay (AAA, BBB and/or CCC) and in what proportion.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
philgoddard
: I agree with your explanation - they have to sort it out among themselves - but I don't think this is how we'd say it in English. It's not about one company being "most liable", just that one company pays the entire amount.
19 mins
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Pse see note above.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: "most liable" is adding a nuance which is not in the ST - think in terms of a plea in the alternative (all of them or as many as the Court shall find liable - not "most liable")
36 mins
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Pse see note above.
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disagree |
Daryo
: You misinterpreted your perfectly good reference, as in "...chaque débiteur est tenu à l’entier du paiement des dettes...." => there is NO apportionment of the liability - each will end up owing either nothing or the whole sum.
1 day 7 hrs
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+1
13 hrs
all or any of companies AAA, BBB INC et CCC INC
IOW, a workaround.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Daryo
: the end result is the same, although the "mieux" part is completely lost
1 day 1 hr
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: This is more like an explanation (and a valid and useful one) than a translation
5 days
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Discussion
It does indeed look like "whichever of them is (deemed (by whom?)) most liable", but that would be a pretty poor judgment!