| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Proposal that people who answer questions via the Kudoz system should be obliged to be nice. Thread poster: Michael Beijer
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Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:52
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| University lecturers | Dec 11, 2010 |
Maybe it's just a sort of climate required at KudoZ ( which I respect as "the specialty of the house"), but I remember back in the University days when, as students, we had our errors corrected by lecturers and professors, ridicule and sarcasm was also quite often used while correcting us, and it was sort of normal. It served us to learn things. We were not entitled to dispute that or complain. All we could do was to improve ourselves and thus reduce the amount of criticism ( if we cared to do ... See more Maybe it's just a sort of climate required at KudoZ ( which I respect as "the specialty of the house"), but I remember back in the University days when, as students, we had our errors corrected by lecturers and professors, ridicule and sarcasm was also quite often used while correcting us, and it was sort of normal. It served us to learn things. We were not entitled to dispute that or complain. All we could do was to improve ourselves and thus reduce the amount of criticism ( if we cared to do so).
Maybe the problem with KudoZ is that it's not known who's the student and who's the lecturer, and everyone is everything. A chaotic role distribution. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Trisha F
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:52
English to Spanish
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| Not only people who answer should be nice | Dec 11, 2010 |
The other side of the coin, of course, is that there are plenty of good reasons to make the occasional (unwanted?) cautious remark, especially given the scores of questions that grace this site every day from people who are clearly hopelessly out of their depth. In a genuine professional atmosphere where people treat each other like adults, it should be possible, for example, to say something when a person, who is obviously not up to the job, asks loads of medical and/or technical questions for a translation of questionable quality that could lead to somebody taking the wrong dosage of medicine or getting electrocuted.
I'll also admit that I'm occasionally very sorely tempted to ask certain folks if they wouldn't prefer to pass the job on to somebody who is actually qualified to do it -- but I resist, I don't get my kicks out of getting pistol-whipped and beaten by the mods -- although I do often wonder if it's professional of us not to say anything at all in situations where the likely outcome may at least be the occupational equivalent of a massive drug overdose and/or electrocution.
As answerers we also often run into situations where newbies and oldbies alike ask questions but steadfastly refuse to provide context. This paves the way for a guessing game that nobody can win, although points are ultimately distributed, nonetheless. In fact, there is currently a proposal to oblige askers to provide context...
I agree with this. There are times when I wonder about people asking too many medical, legal or technical questions. There is not only the danger of physical harm but also that of moral, psychological or financial harm; someone might lose their house, their child's custody or even end up in prison.
I had already mentioned this in other thread but when I was doing my MA in translation studies there was this student from Portugal who accepted translation jobs from English into Spanish. She could speak some Spanish but was not exactly fluent. She seemed to believe that because Portuguese and Spanish were similar the job was just a piece of cake. Besides, she justified her actions by saying that there was a much higher demand for Spanish translators in her agency. She once e-mailed to me this complex manual for me to proofread. I practically rewrote the whole thing and highlighted big portions of the text, telling her that it was important that she checked this with her client, otherwise someone could die if the information was not accurate.
Coming back to this thread I think nice is or should be an unwritten rule when participating both in KudoZ and the forums. I have also received a few sarcastic comments in both sections of Proz. They haven't been many to be honest but then again, I haven't posted that much. I think the first negative impression I got from Proz put me off from using this site for months, which is a shame as I may have missed quite a lot. I am still a young translator who is trying to become a full-time freelancer, the least I want to hear is an over competitive know-it-all picking on me because I wrote a post in a rush and as a consequence my writing does not sound like one of Shakespeare's sonnets!
| | | | Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Local time: 07:52
German to English
| I've got to start somewhere! | Dec 11, 2010 |
Hello Friends (I hope)!
I am new here and am slowly getting familiar with this site and the opportunities it offers. I often answer questions with extremely varying degrees of confidence, which of course, is diplayed. It is important for me to be active where I can. Often, I have received derogatory, know-it-all comments which I felt were way out of line. Fortunately, I am not easily discouraged and can ignore socially mal-adjusted behaviour - I'm just glad whoever it is, isn't my neig... See more Hello Friends (I hope)!
I am new here and am slowly getting familiar with this site and the opportunities it offers. I often answer questions with extremely varying degrees of confidence, which of course, is diplayed. It is important for me to be active where I can. Often, I have received derogatory, know-it-all comments which I felt were way out of line. Fortunately, I am not easily discouraged and can ignore socially mal-adjusted behaviour - I'm just glad whoever it is, isn't my neightbour!
Yes, consideration and social graces are degrees worth flaunting!
[Edited at 2010-12-11 18:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Proposal that people who answer questions via the Kudoz system should be obliged to be nice. | Dec 11, 2010 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Yes, I know, this sounds like a joke. However, I am not joking.
I am SICK AND TIRED of dealing with certain people's dour sarcastic know-it-all attitude while so-called "helping" others in the KudoZ questions. Please, either help or don't help, but don't pretend to help just as an excuse to point out how terribly clever you are. We already know all of that: you probably charge twice as much as we do, have been translating since 1924, have many more dictionaries than we do, and a study, and smoke a pipe, and you also just so happen to translate into and out of French, German, Spanish, Danish, Russian and Flemish, ... we concede complete and utter defeat. We will never be as Professional as you are. However, that is not why we asked that question. We don't care about all of that. All we want is a friendly answer to our question. It's quite simple really; focus on our QUESTION, not on the validity of our asking it.
There are a number of people who NEVER answer ANYTHING, but do find enough time to criticise those of us that do in our every move.
This is counter-productive to the entire site.
There are those among us who no longer dare to ask questions, for fear of being made a fool of. There are many people out there who are good translators, but for whatever reason, are not very good at the KudoZ system. Sadly, there are also a number of people out there who are "really good at The KudoZ System", but really bad at simply being nice.
I therefore suggest that we all try to remember what our mothers once taught us:
"If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all."
Please.
Michael
Honestly, this seems more and more to be a kindergarten to me. In my humble opinion the KudoZ page is a page where adult professionals meet to help each other, and therefore what matters is that the questions are asked and answered correctly, without any further obligation.
Obviously to be polite and sympathy helps to create a better world for all, but nobody is obliged to, «provided that as an adult it takes the consequences...»
[Bearbeitet am 2010-12-11 22:26 GMT]
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Kay Barbara
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:52
Member (2008)
English to German
+ ...
| Agree with Pablo! | Dec 12, 2010 |
Maybe some people just have a problem with dealing with criticism?
If I give a utterly useless/wrong answer why should someone give me a neutral comment?
Useless answer=diagree... that's how it should be. Professionals should be able to disagree and debate about matters without anyone taking it the wrong way.
If any personal/offensive/abusive etc. comment is made in a kudoz question, anyone can inform a moderator. I am confident that such complaints are being dealt with (more o... See more Maybe some people just have a problem with dealing with criticism?
If I give a utterly useless/wrong answer why should someone give me a neutral comment?
Useless answer=diagree... that's how it should be. Professionals should be able to disagree and debate about matters without anyone taking it the wrong way.
If any personal/offensive/abusive etc. comment is made in a kudoz question, anyone can inform a moderator. I am confident that such complaints are being dealt with (more or less) quickly.
Ramey wrote "Often, I have received derogatory, know-it-all comments which I felt were way out of line." ...
After having a quick look through your answers I only found 1 (or 2) disagrees and some neutral comments. While one of the disagrees was not exactly in-line with the kudoz rules, I failed to see how anyone could read it as "derogatory" (unless they can't accept criticism). If you do feel hard done by, please inform a moderator. ▲ Collapse
| | | | imatahan
Brazil
Local time: 02:52
English to Portuguese
+ ...
For me, there is a fine line between a joke and rudeness. And a fine line between a "disagree" comment and rudeness.
When I ask a question on Kudoz is because I've exhausted all my reasearch means: dictionairies (physical and virtuals), and online researchs.
But I can notice mistreatment on both sides, askers and answerers, more and more frequently.
Askers that seem that have never worked on a subject and do sequential basic questions on it. Why did they ha... See more For me, there is a fine line between a joke and rudeness. And a fine line between a "disagree" comment and rudeness.
When I ask a question on Kudoz is because I've exhausted all my reasearch means: dictionairies (physical and virtuals), and online researchs.
But I can notice mistreatment on both sides, askers and answerers, more and more frequently.
Askers that seem that have never worked on a subject and do sequential basic questions on it. Why did they have accepted the job? I do not answer them anymore.
Answerers that have a sport: criticize others in an acid manner, rude, edging cruelty in their sarcasm.
I often work a lot with lists of phrases of language guides or games. There is no way in this situation to furnish a context. And if I had a context myself, I'd not be in doubt most of the times.
So, I myself am avoiding Kudoz. Why to annoy myself with disrespectful people, that may have studied a lot, may have lots of diplomas and lots of degrees but didn't have a mother to teach them good manners?
And I've seen some colleagues complaining about rudeness and no moderator acting or one saying it's normal...
We must not forget that we are dealing with different cultures. And what is normal in USA, or Croatia, or Spain, for example, may be abnormal in Brazil, as for us may be rude, may be unmotivated offense.
My parents taught at the University as myself, and "ridicule and sarcasm" were not the rule, and should be a reason of complaint to the Board against a teacher. We cultivate good manners in the academy here. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Local time: 07:52
German to English
Yes, Kay, the really offensive ones were deleted. Funny, that! I think I can take criticism quite well. Doesn't make my day, of course, but I usually consider it before I fall to pieces. Criticism and cynicism are very distant cousins - and I don't think they're speaking at the moment!
Be well,
Ramey
| | | | | Intentional rudeness | Dec 12, 2010 |
imatahan wrote:
We must not forget that we are dealing with different cultures. And what is normal in USA, or Croatia, or Spain, for example, may be abnormal in Brazil, as for us may be rude, may be unmotivated offense.
I think that, as translators, we are quite aware of the customs and standards of each other's cultures in Kudoz questions in our language pairs. I my opinion, this "unwanted rudeness" does not exist. If someone wants to be rude, it will be intentional.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:52
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Let's take a look.. | Dec 12, 2010 |
Let's take a look at how some people deal with constructive criticism and honest opinions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqVOIWgtu50&feature=related
Simon is known for blunt and sarcastic comments on X-factor.
I have friends in the world of theater, arts, and all critics use more or less the same style as Simon, although they are not in U... See more Let's take a look at how some people deal with constructive criticism and honest opinions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqVOIWgtu50&feature=related
Simon is known for blunt and sarcastic comments on X-factor.
I have friends in the world of theater, arts, and all critics use more or less the same style as Simon, although they are not in UK/US, so it has really nothing to do with culture. It's needed for the art pieces to become better. And those who can't swallow a bit of sarcasm and honesty, should probably look for a different job. Honesty can also just appear as sarcasm because the huge ego can't process it differently.
[Edited at 2010-12-12 14:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Trisha F
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:52
English to Spanish
+ ...
| No problem with contructive criticism. | Dec 12, 2010 |
The key word is CONSTRUCTIVE of course. It may sometimes sound harsh but in essence it comes from colleagues who mean well. However, rudeness is not necessarily a sign of blunt sincerity and is seldom constructive. Some people just like to feel better at others' expense, that's a fact.
When I was in university I could often take sarcasm from lecturers because I acknowledged the fact that they were experts and wanted me to become an excellent translator. On the other hand, this is n... See more The key word is CONSTRUCTIVE of course. It may sometimes sound harsh but in essence it comes from colleagues who mean well. However, rudeness is not necessarily a sign of blunt sincerity and is seldom constructive. Some people just like to feel better at others' expense, that's a fact.
When I was in university I could often take sarcasm from lecturers because I acknowledged the fact that they were experts and wanted me to become an excellent translator. On the other hand, this is not very clear on Proz.com, I don't know much about the people I'm talking to 80% of the time. Why should I tolerate vitriolic comments? I have to say that I have experienced more sarcasm in fora than in the KudoZ section but basic politeness costs nothing anyway. Being nice is very different from being patronising or from agreeing with absolutely everyone about absolutely everything. It is OK to disagree and to criticise as long as one's intentions are good. Discussion should be encouraged obviously but good manners don't have to be lost in the process.
[Edited at 2010-12-12 22:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rolf Kern
Switzerland
Local time: 07:52
English to German
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In memoriam | Obligation to be nice | Dec 12, 2010 |
Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness.
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Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:52
German to English
+ ...
| I would rather say... | Dec 12, 2010 |
Rolf Kern wrote:
Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness.
Some people think that is the case. I would prefer to say: Translation is a competitive business, but there is still room for kindness.
Oliver
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 07:52
French to German
+ ...
| Problem solved! | Dec 13, 2010 |
Rolf Kern wrote:
Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness.
Then there is no need to help others either - to each their mess... and let KudoZ and similar systems go down the drain.
The problem addressed by the OP would then be solved. Simple as that.
| | | | | How many replies did you expect? | Dec 13, 2010 |
Rolf Kern wrote:
Translation is a harsh business. There is no room for kindness.
It is quite obvious that this is not true, as proven daily in this same portal.
Now, how many reactions did you expect from the experiment of posting that sentence? I am curious!
(You can of course add mine.)
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