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| | | We should wait for evidence on this particular point. | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
and governmental offices. I am really surprised that the ATA still uses it, although it is totally not PC. They may, after all, have turned into nothing but one of the many commercial associations. I don't know if the NYC protocol is anywhere to be found online. If I find it, I will post the link. I cannot do it right now.
Can we please postpone the discussions on the legality of these requirements until you post that protocol? Both sides of the discussion on this particular point have stated their opinions and, without further evidence, it looks pointless to keep repeating the same opinions.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Ty Kendall 
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
hebreo al inglés
| "British English" doesn't sound like anything | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
The problem is not that British accent is irritating, but rather that British English, in its extreme form, sounds like a different language from American English.
It's not an accent, or even a dialect. It's a standardised language variant.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
hebreo al inglés
| No, you're spot on! | Aug 7, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Edited to say that I'm not a native (oops) speaker of English, so maybe my experience is somewhat skewed...
[Edited at 2013-08-07 13:05 GMT]
Only the most insular, redneck, unexposed-to-TV Americans would find British accents exotic or difficult to understand. Conversely only the most anti-American, stuck in the 50s pedant Brits with an axe to grind would claim to find American accents difficult. Lilian does a disservice to Americans by proclaiming such things.
I'm sorry but within the Anglosphere we don't generally tend to think of other variants' accents as "foreign languages", even the stronger more impenetrable ones.
| | | | | It does not matter if it is a variant, standard, or non standard | Aug 7, 2013 |
So called "native British English" is not "native American English" -- they simply cannot be perceived as the same language. So, it does not really matter if someone speaks with a slight German accent, or a British accent -- the difference might be even in favor of the slight X accent because it is less obtrusive than some extreme varieties of British English used in an American environment.
And you missed the point, Ty, unfortunately. British English is not hard to understand, ... See more So called "native British English" is not "native American English" -- they simply cannot be perceived as the same language. So, it does not really matter if someone speaks with a slight German accent, or a British accent -- the difference might be even in favor of the slight X accent because it is less obtrusive than some extreme varieties of British English used in an American environment.
And you missed the point, Ty, unfortunately. British English is not hard to understand, especially for someone who has lived in the UK. There is nothing not to understand. It is just somehow inconvenient to listen to conversations in British English, especially in its extreme form, in an American environment-- like certain reality shows, etc-- although I am not really a fan of those, but I incidentally watched a few. It is just very tiring and sounds like a Norwegian and a Swede speaking, sort of.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 13:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
hebreo al inglés
| They don't need to be perceived as the same language.. | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
So called "native British English" is not "native American English" -- they simply cannot be perceived as the same language.
....they ARE the same language.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
portugués al inglés
+ ...
| British accent? | Aug 7, 2013 |
I'd like to know what Lilian understands to be a British accent.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
portugués al inglés
+ ...
| | Britain is really a place very abundant in accents | Aug 7, 2013 |
There are at least hundreds of different accents there -- some almost totally incomprehensible to the people from the other parts of Britain (a few).
I mostly had in mind RP, sometimes used by various show hosts, even if they work in the US.
And you really might be surprise, Ty, how some people in the US perceive extreme forms of British English. Some actually need an interpreter, others just get annoyed.
And please consider the subtlety -- "British E... See more There are at least hundreds of different accents there -- some almost totally incomprehensible to the people from the other parts of Britain (a few).
I mostly had in mind RP, sometimes used by various show hosts, even if they work in the US.
And you really might be surprise, Ty, how some people in the US perceive extreme forms of British English. Some actually need an interpreter, others just get annoyed.
And please consider the subtlety -- "British English may be experienced as a different language, phonetically" -- not "it is a different a language" (not yet, at least).
[Edited at 2013-08-07 13:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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S E (X)
Italia
Local time: 04:04
italiano al inglés
| for the record | Aug 7, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Going back to the article in question-- the one from the New York Times -- I apologize -- it is a very interesting article -- it was just being totally misrepresented by presenting just separate unrelated sentences from it, taken out of the context. It is the author's personal experience, though,more than anything else.
The quotes selected from the newspaper piece are neither misrepresented, nor unrelated, nor taken out of context.
They are, on the contrary, fully and clearly representative of the author's single, highly-focused thesis. The four quotes are all interrelated, and are all directly expressive of the author's sole point.
I fail to see the (constructive) purpose of claiming that fully representative, clearly interrelated quotes expressive of an author's single thesis have instead "totally misrepresented" a piece, "presenting just separate unrelated sentences from it, taken out of the [sic] context".
[Edited at 2013-08-07 13:32 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
hebreo al inglés
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
There are at least hundreds of different accents there -- some almost totally incomprehensible to the people from the other parts of Britain (a few).
Tell me more about the country I was born and lived in all my life....
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Ty Kendall wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
So called "native British English" is not "native American English" -- they simply cannot be perceived as the same language. ....they ARE the same language.
In spite of whatever regional differences in vocabulary and pronunciation, proper English is one and the same language everywhere. Though the standardization of it is far more pervasive, say, in Israel, a small country where everybody speaks English with that same Zohan-like accent, it is still the same.
As I've just learned on this thread, the USA has no official language. I wouldn't know about Great Britain.
On the other hand, Portuguese is the official language in both Brazil and Portugal, as expressly stated on both Constitutions. Yet the PT and BR variants of Portuguese are much farther apart than the two most distant variants of English.
Nevertheless, all PT speakers are expected to translate from any variant of it, since it is legally one and the same language.
I wouldn't know which situation is worse. As an EN-US speaker, EN-UK, EN-AU, EN-NZ, whatever, are much easier for me to understand than PT-PT. Yet technically, I am a thoroughly native speaker of PT.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:34
Miembro 2006
inglés al hindi
+ ...
LOCALIZADOR DEL SITIO | It can at least present a level playing field | Aug 7, 2013 |
S. Elizabeth wrote:
Bala: I am curious as to why you did not comment on my suggestion that it might not be reasonable to expect a single website to effectively handle such a disparate range of professional cultures. We are, I believe, clearly talking about many different definitions of "professional translator" operating in many different cultural realities, which in many ways seem to conflict with one another in critical areas. How can a single website effectively serve opposed "professionalisms" equally well?
Sarah
The least the site can do would be to present a level playing field for all its members. An international translation website like proz.com cannot simply shy away from this issue merely by citing the complexity of the issue as an alibi for doing nothing or for following practices that favour one section of its members.
Now that these discussions have incontrovertibly shown that the native button is discriminatory to those members who have high-levels of proficiency in their target languages, the site should work toward deemphasising this feature in its scheme of things. Various suggestions for doing this have come up in this thread itself.
The problem as I see it is not the great diversity of backgrounds to be found among translators, but it is that a site like this caters to two distinct target groups (outsourcers and translators) who have conflicting requirements. While the outsourcers want an easy (and often simplistic) method for finding translators for their jobs, translators want unrestricted access to jobs that they can do.
A lot depends on out of these two major groups of members, whom the site wants to please more. On the native language issue at least, it seems to me, the site is solidly on the side of the outsourcers.
[Edited at 2013-08-07 13:40 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
Reino Unido
Local time: 03:04
hebreo al inglés
| English only de facto, not de jure official language | Aug 7, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
As I've just learned on this thread, the USA has no official language. I wouldn't know about Great Britain.
Like America and Australia, English is the de facto official language of England, not de jure. Ironically, the only de jure official language within the UK is Welsh! (in Wales) courtesy of the 2011 Welsh Language Act.
| | | | | Ok, you tell me -- Ty | Aug 7, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
There are at least hundreds of different accents there -- some almost totally incomprehensible to the people from the other parts of Britain (a few). Tell me more about the country I was born and lived in all my life....
How many different varieties have you got? Which varieties may be hard to understand for people from other regions (please include Cockney) In fact what is going on with this variety right now?
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:34
Miembro 2006
inglés al hindi
+ ...
LOCALIZADOR DEL SITIO | ATA is equally ambiguous on what consists native language | Aug 7, 2013 |
Tatty wrote:
If the ATA uses the adjective "native", then I think that we can safely assume that it can be used and that it should be given its usual meaning within the context of our profession i.e. a language which you can translate into at a professional level and unassisted, that is, you don't need a proofreader to come along and tweak the text or tidy it up from a language point of view.
The ATA is equally confused as to what is native language, for it qualifies it as "your dominant languages" and allows its members to list unlimited number of languages as their native languages in their profiles, which kind of highlights that this is an unscientific concept which we should eschew at the earliest possible.
And for the requirement of proof-reading, you will agree that all translations, whether done by natives or non-natives, benefit from proof-reading and editing, so that is not saying much either way.
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