| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Poll: Has a proofreader ever "ruined" a translation you've done? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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| The luck of Mr. Catchy (the problem starts from the PMs and processes allowing it) | Jan 31 |
In 2008ish a large agency assigned a financial translation to someone with a catchy name (there was no other reason to hire him).
The PM noticed the target text was off (back then PMs were not "bubble gum NPCs") and emailed me for help 2 hrs before client deadline. The text had been MTed entirely by Mr. Catchy without even fixing syntax. I made some key fixes to make it at least "ok and cross your fingers".
The PM didn't escalate the issue of Mr. Catchy (bureaucracy...), so Mr. Catch... See more In 2008ish a large agency assigned a financial translation to someone with a catchy name (there was no other reason to hire him).
The PM noticed the target text was off (back then PMs were not "bubble gum NPCs") and emailed me for help 2 hrs before client deadline. The text had been MTed entirely by Mr. Catchy without even fixing syntax. I made some key fixes to make it at least "ok and cross your fingers".
The PM didn't escalate the issue of Mr. Catchy (bureaucracy...), so Mr. Catchy remained in the books. Other PMs didn't know and kept using him, and placed me in the "friend zone" of that project (the role of "Final Eye").
Until one day a good translator was assigned the next batch, but unfortunately Mr. Catchy was assigned the proofreading. And he destroyed much of the good text (conflict of interest). I pointed that out. But Mr. Catchy had already created a good reputation (because of the good efforts of Mr. FinalEye), and was assigned the role of "specialist" (still using bare MT). I quit the FinalEye role because it wasn't paying for the effort, and the agency never contacted again the other good translator because she dared to protest against Mr. Catchy.
I insisted that a proofreader's changes must be explained and documented, as not even a high school would accept unexplained edits, but in an industry where nobody knows any other job, what do you expect...
I have written material in my hands which in the right hands (hands with reach and time) can destroy much of the financial and medical clientele of that large agency, proving that their processes are, as another commentator said in another platform, "imbecilic". They can create and destroy careers by simply applying personal preferences opportunistically, and after Covid it became a lot worse (now they work from home without direct supervision). Plus, they brought the inherently corrupt business cultures/mentalities of their countries into a profession that was almost solid until then.
This is not an isolated case, it's their norm. It has affected the psychological health, peace of mind and finances of many of their best translators. And when they bought a series of small but good agencies, they destroyed them too. A good PM from one of those good agencies wrote a mass email to all her translators when she quit, but unfortunately most of us didn't pay much attention to what she was describing about "toxic culture". That's where the bad proofreading problem begins - with the PMs not stopping unexplained edits, but instead believing the proofreader at face value. Especially if his name is Mr. Catchy.
When I saw here in the polls the question "Would you advise your children to become translators", it sounded to me like advising a young person with a degree in Nuclear Medicine to work at dad's hotdog joint. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:47
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
The PM noticed the target text was off (back then PMs were not "bubble gum NPCs") and emailed me for help 2 hrs before client deadline.
Why do you even accept this? I wouldn't dream of it to accept this kind of terrible work (fixing the bad work of a translator 2 hours before the deadline). Some problems are easy to avoid.
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
The text had been MTed entirely by Mr. Catchy without even fixing syntax.
In 2008 machine translation was absolutely terrible and not even close to what it is now. If your client would have been anywhere near decent he would have looked into the issue (a translator that uses untouched machine translation) by hiring a third translator or even a fourth to see if it's true what you were claiming.
Again, why would you work for such terrible clients?
| | | | | Blame the entry tests | Feb 1 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: Again, why would you work for such terrible clients?
That project manager was a good one, he saw the errors, asked for my help. Blame "entry tests" at large agencies: they give a 300-word very easy test to pass everyone. I proposed to make the tests difficult. They didn't do it, because Vendor Departments get bonuses when they admit many new translators. Today, MT passes all their tests 95%. Their admission score is 70%... sigh...
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:47
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
They didn't do it, because Vendor Departments get bonuses when they admit many new translators.
I can't relate to your general view of the translation business. In my 18-year freelancing career I haven't met a single client like the ones you describe.
[Bijgewerkt op 2024-02-01 08:12 GMT]
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Barbara Carrara 
Italy
Local time: 16:47
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
Emily Kenn wrote:
I consider myself fortunate as I had the opportunity to collaborate with exceptional proofreaders.
As a translation student, as per your profile, can you expand on that, please? Thanks.
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Lieven Malaise wrote:
I can't relate to your general view of the translation business. In my 18-year freelancing career I haven't met a single client like the ones you describe.
My older daughter is finishing her PhD soon, I have 3 daughters without college debt. Doing that without other source of income, and having my first free weekend in 2011, says that I was handling everything that came at the door for more than 2 decades. For some years even with interpreting appointments, conferences (simultaneous), middle of the night transcripts, and even translating on-site (at law firms which never allowed documents to leave their building - at the time in Chicago that was $600/day, and they would fly me from Philadelphia). It was still cheap, considering that $600 at the time was the fee agencies were paying to translate 5,000 words (0.12/word).
I have had dinners, outings, person-to-person dealings with department managers and sales, because at times I would do that too, sell the product.
Then the financial crisis hit Greece, and I ended up supporting two more family members that were out of work. With obvious and serious (irreversible) health problems at the end which required slowing down to a crawl the last 5-6 years, but also with very wide, diverse and very different experiences, that sound strange to people with much smaller and selective agency-only clientele.
These forums become a lot more useful when people with different experiences participate (currently the "views vs. commentators" ratio is embarrassingly low). And they will become even better, welcoming a lot more people, without cheap mockery - frankly some people here sound like cheap jerks.
At any rate, about 12-14 years ago in these forums I warned about rates "going under 10 cents, even down to 8", and many disagreed. I was wrong, they went much lower. Now I say that AI by itself is nothing, but in combination with MT, it will give the end-clients the element they were missing: an interface to find the tools and use them. That's more pressure to the agencies to lower their prices, and guess what will happen to the bottom feeders (the translators...). Of course it depends on what someone expects - it might be very "chic" for a single person in Europe to earn $5K/month and meet with friends for brunch and selfies, but over here under 10K means you are not middle class anymore. So obviously I failed to recognize that I was talking from a completely different angle.
| | | | | It only takes a few... | Feb 1 |
Emily Kenn wrote:
I consider myself fortunate as I had the opportunity to collaborate with exceptional proofreaders.
Me too, but it only takes 10% bad ones to cause enormous damage. At the end, it all depends on whether the project manager can explain what happens. I'm not going to describe the excellent experiences I've had, which are a lot more than the bad ones.
But the bad ones can be very damaging.
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 17:47
Member
English to Turkish
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
but over here under 10K means you are not middle class anymore.
I reckon you must live like a king on 9K/month in Greece, and that's where your competitors are based?
I was always curious about the translators living in first world countries and translating from and into cheap/third world languages (obviously Greece is an EU country, yet I'm appalled at the rates Greek translators seem to charge), but I had no idea of the extent of it. No wonder you've had one weekend off in two decades... You must be making ample use of MT then?
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| I shouldn't really be complaining... | Feb 1 |
Baran Keki wrote:
yet I'm appalled at the rates Greek translators seem to charge), but I had no idea of the extent of it. No wonder you've had one weekend off in two decades...
I live in the US. Competition was not a big deal during the boom, when MT didn't exist. Even in Greece, the old guard was charging about the same as in the US ($0.12). Then a new wave of young translators came in, and they "knew everything" and never listened to the older ones on what to charge. So instead of charging slightly less than us (let's say 11 or 10), they went all the way to... 3 cents. Without any market research, nothing. Because they knew everything.
My own case was different because of a boatload of family obligations (old world duties). Under normal circumstances I would have had 25 good years. But I miscalculated the MT factor, because I thought we had more time. I also didn't predict that most great small agencies would be sold one after the other within 2 years.
[Edited at 2024-02-01 11:28 GMT]
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Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
I have written material in my hands which in the right hands (hands with reach and time) can destroy much of the financial and medical clientele of that large agency
I have information in my hands which could take down entire governments, even the planet. And I have a white cat. Mwahahaha.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 16:47
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Competition was not a big deal during the boom, when MT didn't exist. Even in Greece, the old guard was charging about the same as in the US ($0.12). Then a new wave of young translators came in ...
The big game changer was the Internet.
Suddenly, millions of people could offer their services where before there had been very closed circles.
Languages with less demand were also affected, but the biggest impact was seen on languages with large markets, such as English and Spanish. And as the market rule goes, the bigger the supply, the lower the price.
Technologies - CAT, MT and the like - just added to this situation.
[Bearbeitet am 2024-02-01 13:28 GMT]
| | | | | True, but there was no reason (back then) | Feb 1 |
Zea_Mays wrote: The big game changer was the Internet.
True, but there was no reason for them to lower their prices, because end-clients were paying the same anyway and had no idea translators were so cheap. The agencies kept the huge balance. I was trying to tell them that (me and others). They could charge 0.11 and still be competitive, not 0.03 (!). They lost 2 decades of triple income - they would have retired by now. Instead, they keep working at 0.03 to pay the bills.
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:47
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
they would have retired by now. Instead, they keep working at 0.03 to pay the bills.
I would like to see figures of how many fulltime translators (in the western world) are actually accepting (conventional translation) work for 0.03 euros a word and are able to pay their bills.
| | | | | A lot more than I personally thought | Feb 1 |
Lieven Malaise wrote: I would like to see figures of how many fulltime translators are actually accepting (conventional translation) work for 0.03 euros
In Greece it's considered a good price by most (I know, sounds strange). I have PM screenshots - agency offers 0.05 (straight trans), half of Greek translators counteroffer 0.03. Bulgarians 0.07. Other agencies offer more, yet some Greeks insist on lowering offers even without the agency asking for it (end-clients were paying 0.28). If they had followed my suggestion (0.11) they'd be rich. One of them called me a "communist organizer" back then...
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 16:47
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| The increasing No. Of agencies | Feb 1 |
The zillion agencies that keep trifting and lowering the rates, that’s the culprit here and not the Internet. When I first started online I was charging $0.16 without issues, now the same agencies that were paying $0.16 offer me $0.03 (I tell them to go out, take a walk and then come back with a counteroffer).
On a hopeful note: lately I noticed an increasing trend of direct clients creating small localization departments instead of outsourcing it to agencies (eg. pharma and medic... See more The zillion agencies that keep trifting and lowering the rates, that’s the culprit here and not the Internet. When I first started online I was charging $0.16 without issues, now the same agencies that were paying $0.16 offer me $0.03 (I tell them to go out, take a walk and then come back with a counteroffer).
On a hopeful note: lately I noticed an increasing trend of direct clients creating small localization departments instead of outsourcing it to agencies (eg. pharma and medical agencies/companies), it seems they finally came to their senses, and realized what those agencies are doing (random peanut proofreaders eg.). These direct client departments have slightly above agency rates, but they offer more work, better flow, faster payment and better relationships. Hopefully this trend will continue.
[Edited at 2024-02-01 15:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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