| Pages sur ce sujet: < [1 2] | Poll: Which is the language (L2) that proved to be the most useful in your job as a translator? Auteur du fil: ProZ.com Staff
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Liena Vijupe 
Lettonie
Local time: 05:29
Membre (2014)
français vers letton/lette
+ ...
In my view it's simply because they don't really "need" English (or at least didn't until recently), since almost everything is available to them in French, and feel obviously more at ease speaking their native language, even if they understand some English.
I've spoken French since I was 6, so I've never needed to use English in France (and have even been told I had a heavy French accent when I started learning English a few years later). People in France, especially in smaller and... See more In my view it's simply because they don't really "need" English (or at least didn't until recently), since almost everything is available to them in French, and feel obviously more at ease speaking their native language, even if they understand some English.
I've spoken French since I was 6, so I've never needed to use English in France (and have even been told I had a heavy French accent when I started learning English a few years later). People in France, especially in smaller and more remote places, have certainly been a lot more warmer and welcoming to me than to others who only spoke English (I've even received free wine and other gifts for that), although I've also had a different experience in Paris when people sometimes automatically switched to English with me because they noticed a tiny accent. Maybe they just wanted to practice, but I found it a bit annoying – I've been living there for years and my French was definitely much better than their English – so my usual reaction was to pretend that I don't speak English. Because why would I?
[Edited at 2021-06-14 09:50 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-06-14 15:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 03:29
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
Liena Vijupe wrote:
In my view it's simply because they don't really "need" English (or at least didn't until recently), since almost everything is available to them in French, and feel obviously more at ease speaking their native language, even if they understand some English.
I've spoken French since I was 6, so I've never needed to use English in France (and have even been told I had a heavy French accent when I started learning English a few years later). People in France, especially in smaller and more remote places, have certainly been a lot more warmer and welcoming to me than to others who only spoke English (I've even received free wine and other gifts for that), although I've also had a different experience in Paris when people sometimes automatically switched to English with me because they noticed a tiny accent. Maybe they just wanted to practice, but I found it a bit annoying – I've been living there for years and my French was definitely much better than their English – so my usual reaction was to pretended that I don't speak English. Because why would I?
[Edited at 2021-06-14 09:50 GMT]
I have noticed in France that as soon as people realise I'm Irish, not English, their attitude changes. The French seem to have an ancient loathing of the English.
| | | | Mario Freitas
Brésil
Local time: 23:29
Membre (2014)
anglais vers portugais
+ ...
| @ Liena and Baran | Jun 14, 2021 |
Liena Vijupe wrote:
In my view it's simply because they don't really "need" English (or at least didn't until recently), since almost everything is available to them in French, and feel obviously more at ease speaking their native language, even if they understand some English.
We must be realistic and consider human natural trends here. Before the internet, these languages kept surving, but now, everyone has contact with English, and English takes over the internet; and they soon learn how easy it is, how it's possible to communicate perfectly in a language without the need to conjugate verbs, make differences between gender and number and stress letters. Humans are lazy and the easiest path is invariably the most popular one.
Of course it takes many decades for such a radical change, but it WILL happen. There is no chance for complex languages in the future. English, despite all criticism against it, is the future. I'd also love to disagree, but I would not be realistic.
| | | | Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 03:29
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
Liena Vijupe wrote:
.....it is increasingly common that young people find it easier to express themselves in English than in their mother tongue due to constant exposure to the internet ....
That is a dangerous road to take. I would strongly advise against it, because that kind of English, learned from Internet chat and so on, is very bad. So bad that it can be funny, as in this example of two foreign guys who THINK they have learned English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax9Qfs3Bz3A
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Liena Vijupe
Lettonie
Local time: 05:29
Membre (2014)
français vers letton/lette
+ ...
Mario Freitas wrote:
they soon learn how easy it is, how it's possible to communicate perfectly in a language without the need to conjugate verbs, make differences between gender and number and stress letters. Humans are lazy and the easiest path is invariably the most popular one.
When you think of it that way, it would seem even easier to simplify your own language (as it has already been done before with several languages) instead of learning a new one. English is very practical that way, but what is probably even more important is that it is almost impossible to avoid at least some exposure to it these days and also allows people to communicate with anybody, not just within their local communities.
| | | | | I don't know. | Jun 15, 2021 |
Liena Vijupe wrote:
but what is probably even more important is that it is almost impossible to avoid at least some exposure to it these days and also allows people to communicate with anybody, not just within their local communities.
In my uppity Berlin neighborhood (Prenzlauer Berg), English actually serves to prevent a lot of communication locally. Maybe it is different in a few countries, such as the Netherlands or in some Nordic countries, but I don't think there are any other non-English-speaking countries where anything remotely like "most people" (in the literal sense of more than half of all people) speak English well enough to interact in a reasonably effective and painless manner. Not only are all the Germans and non-English-speaking non-Germans repeatedly forced to deal with people who can't speak the local language when they want to buy a coffee or sell a loaf of bread, but all the people who don't know German tend to only feel comfortable in certain neighborhoods of certain cities and tourist sites and can't use German-language media or Internet, etc. That means very limited local news, inability to have conversations with ordinary people, problems with public and private administrative tasks, etc.
People's expectation that every civilized person everywhere should be able to speak English as a lingua franca definitely has its downsides, particularly when we are not talking about tourists, but people moving somewhere for years or even permanently. A fair number of these people are also just barely getting by in terms of the quality of their English and spend almost all their time with friends, colleagues and even loved ones muddling through in a third language none of them can really enjoy.
And while I think English grammar gets by with a very impressive and very admirable lack of fuss, English vocabulary is a completely different story (from spelling and pronunciation to multiple meanings and endless synonyms to jargon that is completely incomprehensible to anyone who doesn't already know the terms or a good deal of Latin and Greek).
I agree that the Internet is a game-changer, but so were centralized states, bureaucracies, national mass media, national universities, etc. All of those things have killed some languages and also homogenized dialects to the point that almost any two people from Swabia and Berlin could (if they wanted) suppress their native dialects to the point they could understand each other and have an (occasionally slightly stilted, but normal) conversation with each other. I just don't think we're going to end up with "one language to rule them all" within the next few generations.
| | | | Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 03:29
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
Michael Wetzel wrote:
In my uppity Berlin neighborhood ....
are you sure you mean "uppity"?
"Uppity" was (and possibly still is) a term racist southerners in America used for black people who didn't know their place.
[Edited at 2021-06-15 13:48 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote: Michael Wetzel wrote:
In my uppity Berlin neighborhood .... are you sure you mean "uppity"? "Uppity" was (and possibly still is) a term racist southerners in America used for black people who didn't know their place. [Edited at 2021-06-15 13:48 GMT]
Uppity has wider usage than that. And I am still waiting for an explanation of your apostrophes and “useful” comments.
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Becca Resnik
États-Unis
Local time: 22:29
Membre
allemand vers anglais
+ ...
| Only historically | Jun 15, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote: Michael Wetzel wrote:
In my uppity Berlin neighborhood .... are you sure you mean "uppity"? "Uppity" was (and possibly still is) a term racist southerners in America used for black people who didn't know their place. [Edited at 2021-06-15 13:48 GMT]
As someone who lives in Tennessee, I can confirm that even people here use and understand that term to mean something like "elitist" or "snooty." There could still be some people here who use the original context of the word, but I haven't met any of them.
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Yes, there are contexts and collocations where I actively avoid words like "uppity," "gangsta," "articulate," etc. However, I feel pretty comfortable using "uppity" + "Prenzlauer Berg."
And, being from Illinois: The "Southerner" part of your definition is a self-serving myth of Northerners. Northern cities and the small-town and rural North have always been and continue to be shaped by racism and prejudice. Maybe it is occasionally necessary to look slightly harder, and the situati... See more Yes, there are contexts and collocations where I actively avoid words like "uppity," "gangsta," "articulate," etc. However, I feel pretty comfortable using "uppity" + "Prenzlauer Berg."
And, being from Illinois: The "Southerner" part of your definition is a self-serving myth of Northerners. Northern cities and the small-town and rural North have always been and continue to be shaped by racism and prejudice. Maybe it is occasionally necessary to look slightly harder, and the situation in the North was nothing compared to the South in the heyday of Apartheid in the US, but it's not like things were or are OK compared to any normal standard.
And as far as "historical" goes, "uppity" has probably morphed into other terms in the usage of most people, but the concept is still alive and well. I would also not want to go out on a limb and insist I've never met people who use "uppity" in Tom's sense, but I don't know anyone who uses it around me.
Edited to be somewhat more honest by adding the following:
I thought of the usage you mentioned when I used the word, and I cannot use the word without thinking of that usage. However, it wasn't and isn't only used to disparage black people for acting like normal people. If you search the newspaper of your choice, you'll probably also find plenty of quotations aimed against women or any other group open to accusations of not "staying in their place." If I have heard someone use the term as a slur in my lifetime (I don't know if I have), then it was almost certainly with reference to a woman or group of women and not an ethnic minority.
To be honest, I don't know if I've ever used "uppity" before, but it popped into my head and I liked the sound it made when I tossed it at the smug, cosmopolitan, financially secure, very white bubble on whose margins I live. After thinking about it too much, I'm not sure that I still like the sound of it, but that is how the word ended up in my post.
[Edited at 2021-06-16 10:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
Royaume-Uni
Local time: 03:29
Membre (2008)
italien vers anglais
Becca Resnik wrote:
As someone who lives in Tennessee, I can confirm that even people here use and understand that term to mean something like "elitist" or "snooty." There could still be some people here who use the original context of the word, but I haven't met any of them.
The only time I've ever heard it used was in movies where a racist person would say something like "that uppity n*****".
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