| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Partial endorsement of Guidelines Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 15:57
Spanish to English
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I support Samuel's idea. But rather than referring to 'partial endorsement' I would suggest 'endorsement with reservations'. And I agree, too, that it doesn't matter one iota what 'problem' Samuel has with the guidelines as written; as a matter principle one should have the option of adapting the 'one-size-fits-all' global guidelines to suit one's own circumstances.
It would be a wise man indeed who could draft a set of guidelines for any profession, intended for worldwide applic... See more I support Samuel's idea. But rather than referring to 'partial endorsement' I would suggest 'endorsement with reservations'. And I agree, too, that it doesn't matter one iota what 'problem' Samuel has with the guidelines as written; as a matter principle one should have the option of adapting the 'one-size-fits-all' global guidelines to suit one's own circumstances.
It would be a wise man indeed who could draft a set of guidelines for any profession, intended for worldwide application, and get it absolutely right first time.
It is considered perfectly normal, when drafting international treaties, for each participating country to have the possibility of making their ratification subject to certain 'reservations'. Just a few days ago, for example, I was reading the Chilean legislation on International Private Law based (still!) on the pan-American 'Bustamante Code' of 1928. Each and every country signatory to that Code prefaced its ratification with a statement setting out the extent of its intended acceptance of, and adherence to, the Code. A few countries undertook complete acceptance; others imposed a delay for the application of certain articles; some denied the application of certain articles within their territories because they were incompatible with existing sovereign national law, which of course had precedence.
The proz.com quidelines were made public a few months ago and came from ... heaven only knows where. Actually (as suggested already by Tomás - "Professional attitude is the same in every trade"), most - perhaps all - of what the guidelines say could be applied without change to most professions exercised on Earth.
Since they are offered primarily as a 'marketing tool' to members of this global community they are presumably intended to be globally acceptable. But, as I suggested at the start, it would be a wise man indeed who could avoid upsetting every one of our 6+ billion global neighbours... And I suspect that only a small proportion of the 6+ thousand adherents to the proz.com guidelines have actually read and properly digested this text - and fully appraised its implications.
It may be that the proz.com guidelines are incompatible with national legislation in this or that country. Or they may contradict guidelines issued by the professional associations representing translators in this or that country. If that is the case, then anyone invited to endorse these guidelines should have the opportunity to 'opt out' of this or that clause, with a clear and concise statement their reasons. In just the same way as international treaties on the abolition of whale hunting are ratified with 'reservations' to allow for scientific research; global treaties on nuclear non-proliferation are ratified with reservations to allow for on-going testing, maintenance and security of existing nuclear stockpiles; and treaties on the abolition of the death sentence are ratified with reservations to allow the execution of those convicted of sipping from someone else's pint of Guinness...
A mechanism allowing translators to endorse the guidelines 'with reservations' would be a thinking man's approach to this endeavour - as opposed to a mere 'click on this button to get a market advantage' scheme. It would give clients a better understanding of each translator's true stance vis à vis the guidelines; and it would obviate the need for verbose forum dicusssions on the relevance and precise wording of the guidelines since a periodic review, by staff, of the specific reservations expressed by endorsers would give a clear factual overview of the real problem areas.
So yes, it's a good idea. Regardless of what Samuel's reservations might be.
MediaMatrix ▲ Collapse
| | | | Niraja Nanjundan (X) 
Local time: 01:27
German to English
I think that it's great that you always take a stand, question, and bring these issues up for discussion, unlike people who are desperately scrambling to get into the Certified Pro program and just blindly endorse the guidelines. People who were always dead against WWA now suddenly have 3 or 4 WWA entries on their profiles. I wonder why?
Anyway, I would definitely give you 100% in the good citizenship category!
[Edited at 2008-10-20 03:28]
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Samuel Murray wrote:
If you think a discussion of my proposal above can only be meaningful if accompanied by a discussion of which items we agree or disagree with, then (a) do a forum search for previous discussions on this matter or (b) say so, and I'll open a new discussion about it in the appropriate forum.
Yes, Samuel, why don't you go ahead and open a new discussion in the appropriate forum. We're all agog to see what you have to bring up...
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:57
Flemish to English
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| With regard to interpreting.... | Oct 20, 2008 |
I endorsed those practises, but did not understand this line :
-"Or advice interact with others only to the extent required to interpret : "
A guideline which I do not understand ? :
"When you arrive, you should not greet the organiser of the event or the president of the participants, if he shakes hands with you or gives you his business-card.
At 10.15 a.m., when there is a coffee-break, you should not mingle with the public.
(usually,... See more I endorsed those practises, but did not understand this line :
-"Or advice interact with others only to the extent required to interpret : "
A guideline which I do not understand ? :
"When you arrive, you should not greet the organiser of the event or the president of the participants, if he shakes hands with you or gives you his business-card.
At 10.15 a.m., when there is a coffee-break, you should not mingle with the public.
(usually, you get some feedback how well you performed).
At noon, when you are invited to sit at the dinner-table by the highest offical (minister, CEO, company representative...), you should refuse and when you are invited for a night on town, it is highly unprofessional to accompany them?
When sitting at a dinner-table, you are sometimes expected to act as a liaison between two parties speaking different languages. Strictly speaking that is not "to the extend required to interpret"?
When the event is finished, you are not required to stay.
However, sometimes you are invited to stay for supper or for a night on the town?
As I understand this guideline, you should refuse.
When executives exchange business-card, you should refuse these cards? ▲ Collapse
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| Customer confusion | Oct 20, 2008 |
Tina Vonhof wrote:
If people could pick and choose from the guidelines - and different people might pick different things - the guidelines would become meaningless.
This is, I think, the sticking point for me.
Customers do not, I think, want or need to go checking which guidelines have been endorsed by which translator. It's just confusing. If you pick one translator one week who has endorsed the guidelines, I think it's only reasonable, as a customer, to think that a second translator the followingweek who has also endorsed the guidelines has endorsed the self-same guidelines, without having to read through to see which bits they have or haven't opted to endorse.
| | | | | Agree with Samuel | Oct 20, 2008 |
Hi,
I can understand Samuel's hesitation to a certain extent. And I agree with Samuel that there is a certain ambiguity.
Take the case of this particular guideline:
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
- do not directly contact end clients, or subcontractors, without permission
Yes, I do not contact end clients, or subcontractors, in normal circumstances. But what happens when an agency does not pay you and refuses to communicate?
One of the ways that we can use is to invoke our copyright on the translation and inform the agency about the same. Give them some time and if they pay within that period, then it's ok but otherwise, I think, I have the full right to inform the end-client that he does not have the right to use my translation because I have not been paid for it and therefore, the copyright has not been transferred.
And as far as "trying to resolve disputes amongst the parties concerned" clause is concerned... what do you do if the agency does not respond to your e-mails and you can call them as much as you like but you can't get through?
There are certain things that we have to bear in mind:
Usually agencies have an idea of the quality of work that we offer as we usually do a small test translation for them.
Terms of payment can not be changed unilaterally. But some agencies think that they are perfectly right in doing so. An agreement is usually between two parties and none of the parties has the right to change it without an express agreement of the other.
And I'm not talking about imaginary situations. All of us know that this is the ground reality of our profession. If the guidelines do not take these into account.... it'll be difficult to follow these.
[Edited at 2008-10-20 10:01]
| | | | | Is this topic dead already? | Oct 21, 2008 |
Samuel, is this the end of the topic? Wouldn't you like to do a little summary, or ─if you are considering a new topic about some guidelines in particular─ an introduction to the new topic?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:57
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks, mediamatrix | Oct 21, 2008 |
mediamatrix wrote:
But rather than referring to 'partial endorsement' I would suggest 'endorsement with reservations'.
I initially called it "qualified endorsement" but I suspected the legalese meaning of "qualified" (in the sense of "not full")is not always known and it may be misunderstood by some that a qualified endorsement is made by a qualified translator
A mechanism allowing translators to endorse the guidelines 'with reservations' would be a thinking man's approach to this endeavour - as opposed to a mere 'click on this button to get a market advantage' scheme.
As it happens, you'll probably find me endorsing it anyway, because not doing so will put me at a distinct disadvantage and essentially ProZ.com is forcing me to do it. I just find it sad that ProZ.com would force their translators to be unethical in the name of being ethical.
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| Still puzzled! | Oct 21, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
As it happens, you'll probably find me endorsing it anyway, because not doing so will put me at a distinct disadvantage and essentially ProZ.com is forcing me to do it. I just find it sad that ProZ.com would force their translators to be unethical in the name of being ethical.
Samuel, this still puzzles me. Honest. I think the Guidelines are applicable to any trade really. If you hired someone for something that is important to you, wouldn't you like him/her to endorse these Guidelines, for your tranquility?
| | | | | Law has priority | Oct 21, 2008 |
mediamatrix wrote:
It may be that the proz.com guidelines are incompatible with national legislation in this or that country. Or they may contradict guidelines issued by the professional associations representing translators in this or that country.
I think this is a completely different matter. If a law in my country was against the Guidelines, I would accept the guidelines and, in case of some conflict, I would explain the affected person that the Guidelines are not enforceable in my country. Not my fault if local law forces me to act against the Guidelines, I reckon.
However, what country could have such strange law that would conflict with any of the Guidelines? I cannot imagine a possible situation, other than revealing information about your customers to the tax authorities or to the police or a court in relation to a criminal investigation or lawsuit.
Can you imagine any other situation of conflict with the text of the Guidelines as it stands today?
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 15:57
Spanish to English
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| Choice ... ? | Oct 21, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: mediamatrix wrote:
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A mechanism allowing translators to endorse the guidelines 'with reservations' would be a thinking man's approach to this endeavour - as opposed to a mere 'click on this button to get a market advantage' scheme. As it happens, you'll probably find me endorsing it anyway, because not doing so will put me at a distinct disadvantage and essentially ProZ.com is forcing me to do it. I just find it sad that ProZ.com would force their translators to be unethical in the name of being ethical.
Well, that's your choice, of course, based on your own assessment of the 'worth' of the guidelines and of the mechanism 'forcing' you to click that 'Endorse guidelines' button.
I have not endorsed the guidelines - and do not plan to do so. That's mainly because I see no benefit in doing so in my particular circumstances, but also because I don't want to end up having to explain to my clients what those guidelines actually mean, on account of their rather poor wording and structure.
If I were running a translation company (which I am not...) I would also be unhappy with the item that reads:
The Guidelines say:
do not directly contact end clients, or subcontractors, without permission
If a translation company cannot directly contact end clients or subcontractors, how on Earth is it supposed to get work? And whose 'permission' do they need?
MediaMatrix
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:57
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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TOPIC STARTER
Tomas wrote:
...or ─if you are considering a new topic about some guidelines in particular─ an introduction to the new topic?
Here: http://www.proz.com/post/972781
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 15:57
Spanish to English
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| The law and other 'guidelines' | Oct 21, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote: mediamatrix wrote:
It may be that the proz.com guidelines are incompatible with national legislation in this or that country. Or they may contradict guidelines issued by the professional associations representing translators in this or that country. I think this is a completely different matter. If a law in my country was against the Guidelines, I would accept the guidelines and, in case of some conflict, I would explain the affected person that the Guidelines are not enforceable in my country. Not my fault if local law forces me to act against the Guidelines, I reckon.
I venture to suggest that if, when endorsing the guidelines, you are aware that something in that text is in conflict with the national laws affecting you or your business, then it makes sense for you to have the opportunity to inform your clients 'in advance' - by adding a brief 'reservation' to your endorsement - rather than waiting for problems to arise and dealing with them afterwards.
Tomás Cano Binder added:
However, what country could have such strange law that would conflict with any of the Guidelines? I cannot imagine a possible situation, other than revealing information about your customers to the tax authorities or to the police or a court in relation to a criminal investigation or lawsuit.
Can you imagine any other situation of conflict with the text of the Guidelines as it stands today?
Like you, Tomás, I can see nothing in the guidelines that raises an alarm in terms of national legislation where I live now - or have ever lived in the past. But those countries have all been part of the 'western' economic and legal world - things might be different in other parts of the world, subject to different codes. Indeed, the proz.com guidelines are very much the product of a western (not to say, US) perspective on how to do business. Where I now live, there is still a thriving 'informal market' for many goods and services and some of the guidelines simply don't 'work' in that situation. I would be interested to know if staff have surveyed members working in other business cultures with a view to ensuring they are truly compatible with global ethics.
I can more-readily envisage that the guidelines 'could' be in conflict with similar documents from professional associations, a national chamber of commerce, or some other body operating at that 'level' in professional life. And it could work both ways - endorsing the proz.com guidelines could be implied as 'watering down' one's endorsement of other guidelines - or vice-versa. Again, it would be helpful to have the opportunity to point to conflicts and clarify one's stance.
I could also envisage that some points in the guidelines could be in conflict with a prozian's own 'general conditions of service' - most probably in the sense of the guidelines being more lenient than those conditions, potentially leading an unsuspecting/ill-informed client to assume that the guidelines reflect the conditions when they do not. Again, prevention is better than cure... even if that just means adding a reservation to one's endorsement of the guidelines saying: "Nothing in these guidelines shall be construed as a modification of [my] general conditions of service, available here [link]."
MediaMatrix
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 22:57
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
mediamatrix wrote: If I were running a translation company (which I am not...) I would also be unhappy with the item that reads: The Guidelines say:
do not directly contact end clients, or subcontractors, without permission
If a translation company cannot directly contact end clients or subcontractors, how on Earth is it supposed to get work? And whose 'permission' do they need?
One, if he's set on it, can take even the 10 Commandments and, exploiting the fact they do not cover all possible cases and nuances, bring them Ad Absurdum. However, all such guidelines include reckoning with one other vital component- common sense.
I AM running a translation company and see no problems with clause "cannot directly contact end clients or subcontractors". I do not contact the direct clients of a Western Agency, which has received an order for 50 languages from their End Client and has subcontracted to me only 5 in which we specialize. The same way I expect our translators not to contact my client, even when they can guess who it is. I see no problems there.
But those countries have all been part of the 'western' economic and legal world - things might be different in other parts of the world, subject to different codes. Indeed, the proz.com guidelines are very much the product of a western (not to say, US) perspective on how to do business. Where I now live, there is still a thriving 'informal market' for many goods and services and some of the guidelines simply don't 'work' in that situation. I would be interested to know if staff have surveyed members working in other business cultures with a view to ensuring they are truly compatible with global ethics.
You got me lost there. Would you please give some examples of things which "might be different in other parts of the world" and are "subject to different codes" as far as ProZ.com Guidelines are concerned? That is- which "Western" part of Guidelines would be unacceptable to other cultures? As far as I'm aware, even Mafia or Yakudzi, in order to function properly, adheres to some guidelines- and my best guess is they would fully endorse ours and have ones much stricter themselves.
And yes, there are people considering it absolutely normal to do whatever to obtain profit, but I'd say they can be found more or less evenly distributed across the World and are not limited to any single culture.
Uldis
[Rediģēts plkst. 2008-10-27 16:56]
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