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BK (inkl.)
längs und quer zur Walzrichtung

Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte

English translation:

now clearly drunkenness and time (untime)

Added to glossary by British Diana
Dec 6, 2010 00:15
13 yrs ago
2 viewers *
German term

Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte

German to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature Musil, Die Amsel
Diese Zeile entstammt einer Kurzgeschichte von Musil, wo er von den Nachtgeräuschen in einem Berliner Hinterhof erzählt.

Meine Frage ist: Wie kann man das Wort "Späte" ins Englische übersetzen? Diese schöne Nominalisierung des Adjektivs "spät" haut ins Englische nicht ganz hin.

Ich wollte das Wort ursprünglich als "lateness" übersetzen, aber das ging nicht, weil es "Unpünktlichkeit" bedeutet. Hier meine anderen Versuche:

"At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and things late."

ODER

"At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are distinctly drunkenness and the (late) hour."

Hat jemand einen Tipp bzw. eine Idee für mich?
Danke!
Proposed translations (English)
4 At 2 a.m. .............are now clearly drunkenness and untime
3 +2 "(At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and) the late hour"
4 +1 At two a.m. noise and laughter from below clearly indicate drunkeness and the lateness of the hour
4 +1 At two o'clock loud noise and laughter below give way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours
4 At 2 am the noise and laughter are obvious results of drink and wee hours.
3 +1 a complete disregard for other people's right to sleep
4 -1 "At two o'clock in the morning din and laughter below have clearly turned into drink and lateness."
3 At two o'clock after midnight, the loud noises and laughter below clearly tell me...
References
more context
Info
There is no reason to avoid "lateness" - because it does not only mean "being late".
Change log

Dec 6, 2010 01:18: Kim Metzger changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Dec 6, 2010 09:19: Ingo Dierkschnieder changed "Term asked" from "\"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte\"" to "Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"

Dec 17, 2010 13:07: British Diana Created KOG entry

Dec 18, 2010 06:22: British Diana changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/848384">British Diana's</a> old entry - "unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"" to ""now clearly drunkenness and time""

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Lancashireman, Johanna Timm, PhD, Kim Metzger

When entering new questions, KudoZ askers are given an opportunity* to classify the difficulty of their questions as 'easy' or 'pro'. If you feel a question marked 'easy' should actually be marked 'pro', and if you have earned more than 20 KudoZ points, you can click the "Vote PRO" button to recommend that change.

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Discussion

British Diana Dec 28, 2010:
@Jocelyn Well, your first foray into KudoZ produced nothing if not argumentative and imaginative responses from some of our "stars". "Poetry and Literature" questions certainly make a welcome change from all those legalese and engineering terms which are usually translators' daily fare and stump "enthusiasts" like me.
BTW there is no need for you as Asker to take part in the debate if you have really provided all there is in the way of context, although it's usual to keep track of what is going on.
Jocelyn Polen (asker) Dec 27, 2010:
I apologize for the belated answer here. I'm new at ProZ & KudoZ and wasn't sure about the technicalities or that so many people answered so quickly! Thank you all for your help!
Lancashireman Dec 11, 2010:
Johanna I suspect Jocelyn turned off her e-mail notifications within 24 hours of this barrage commencing.
Johanna Timm, PhD Dec 10, 2010:
Dear jocelynpolen Seeing that this is the first question you ever asked here, you will – I hope - be utterly impressed with the enthusiasm, tenacity, diligence, sense of humour, persistence, resourcefulness and creativity of this great community!!!!

But no worries, not every question gets such response, we just do this to newcomers to hook them in. Welcome :)
Lancashireman Dec 10, 2010:
Patronising Good evening, Herr Nienerza. You have already been labelled patronising by one unfortunate soul who stumbled in on this debate. Now you are telling me that I “have difficulties in grasping…”. We are *all* having difficulties with this text. You are confident of your interpretation and I am confident that any translation into English needs to be accessible to an English reader. Perhaps together, we can come up with something that satisfies both criteria?
Lancashireman Dec 9, 2010:
Hello Sara … … and welcome to the party (better late than never). It is most gracious of you to give the ENS seal of approval to ‘lateness’, but this on its own certainly does not do the business. If you follow the time stamps on this convoluted debate, you will see that I did concede at 00:47 on the night in question (Constable), that ‘lateness of the hour’ could somehow be worked into the prose. This was taken up 11 hours later by the current leader on +2. Unfortunately, I got hammered by two GNS who appear only to have read the headline term. Anyway, why not join in the fun and suggest your own translation or endorse one of those already on offer?
Sara Noss Dec 9, 2010:
The idea of "lateness" This may be the rather late rambling of a misspent student youth, but, for me, the idea of drunkenness and lateness would not be incomprehensible (as a native speaker). "Lateness" does not merely imply the state of being late. In this context, a Brit would understand what lateness meant, i.e., a boozy and protracted evening and all the accompanying noise that may ensue. It may or may not be a demonstration of disregard for another's right to sleep, but that does not seem to be in question here.
Roland Nienerza Dec 9, 2010:
You seem to have difficulties to grasp - that "Späte" is not "really" acceptable for GNSes - and to have something not "really" acceptable for ENSes would just do Musil justice.

You have btw a strange gôut for puns. Things like "late hood" can be produced for lots of En words, e.g. "accept able", "just ice" etc. - Such punning does not prove anything for or against anything.
Lancashireman Dec 9, 2010:
Teamwork between two groups of native speakers I bow to the GNS here in understanding Musil’s intention. But when it comes to putting it into comprehensible English, this is where we ENS can play our part. Take my word for it, Roland, ‘latehood’ doesn’t work. (The late hood, Al Capone…)
Roland Nienerza Dec 9, 2010:
How about latehood? I have been the first to point out that "Späte" is not a "legitimate", i.e. established word in De - and some others have taken this up.

There has been some argument here about the meaning of "lateness" and whether this would fit into this context. But "lateness" is of course a "legitimate", i.e. establshed word in En.

How about the idea to coin something similarly "illegitimate" for this translation, by calling "Späte" - "latehood". There are even a handful of more or less dubious hits for this in Google, which of course do not prove that the word "exists", but that it has been thought about by some at least already, and this, judging from Google, is more than what can be said of Musil's creation.

http://www.google.de/search?num=30&hl=de&rlz=1T4RNWE_deDE307...

And there is this quote -

"Youth's beautiful like it should
Wisdom waits in latehood
Youth dies with me if it could
And I've left something good"

http://www.writingforums.com/lyrics/63207-my-huney.html

With this, one could get the pairs "drunkenness and latehood" or, for me nicer, "drink and latehood".
Steffen Walter Dec 8, 2010:
No, Roland... ... translation is creativity - the two are inextricably linked.
Roland Nienerza Dec 8, 2010:
"Creativity" comes into play where translation fails.

"Creativity" is for everybody - a free for all and everything goes. Translation is not.
opolt Dec 8, 2010:
Well Roland ... ... given that you're suggesting I'm not even translating here, I guess I don't have to answer in detail. :-| But I find that statement quite patronizing.

BTW it's not the author but the narrator -- startled or not.

To repeat myself, these are just some ideas, because I felt there has been some lack of creativeness in the answers so far, especially wrt "Späte".
Roland Nienerza Dec 8, 2010:
This strays from the text in several ways. 1,- The author is not startled but seems to have followed the "development" from the evening into night hours. - 2,- Things late might suite "Spätes" rather than "Späte". - 3,- It simply is all about noise - arranged in two groups of two.- 4,- "Things" would be not only strange and awkward, but also banal. - 5,- This would spoil the rhythm of the sentence.

But it sure is a way of explaining - though not of translation.
opolt Dec 8, 2010:
An idea WRT "Späte", one strategy could be to "alienate" an existing expression in order to create a similar effect in English with different means.

Though I'm not a native speaker of English, I can think of various ways to produce this effect. For instance, we take the word "things" which according to my knowledge may imply in some cases that you're talking about something nasty you don't want to talk about explicitly. "Things" then gets combined with an adjective following it, which adds to the effect of a somewhat strange expression. So you'd get: "drunkenness and things late" -- which IMHO would be close in its awkwardness to the German expression.

Also, I'd prefer "downstairs" to "from below": "Noise and laughter downstairs at 2 a.m., what, pray, is that if not drunkenness and things late."

These are just some ideas and examples, I don't claim that these are really good solutions. But the trick is to create strangeness in the expression with devices which are different from the author's (if necessary). Be creative. Also, the rhythm of the sentence should IMHO reflect the scandal of getting startled so late at night.

-- written by opolt at 2 a.m. ;-)
Lancashireman Dec 6, 2010:
Interesting and persuasive, Johanna In that case, he probably had in mind the noise of a cat knocking the lid off a dustbin, the sound of the electrically powered milk float or maybe the hum of a refrigerator...

Musical interlude: Changing Opinion - Philip Glass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1irfiYgf2pA
Gradually we became aware of a hum in the room
An electrical hum in the room. It went mmmmmm
Maybe it's the hum of a calm refrigerator, cooling on a big night
Maybe it's the hum of our parents' voices, long ago in a soft light.
Roland Nienerza Dec 6, 2010:
"late-night carousing" - is not only susupiciously long for something as succinct - even if being an ephemeral whim - as "Späte".

"Carousing" could go with or even stand for "drunikenness", but would not normally to be associated with "lateness [of the hour]". "late-night carousing" is somewhat might be a funny invention in its own right, but does not relate to "Späte" in this context - for a De native.

And the analogy of "Späte" is not so much with far fetched "Kälte", "Höhe", "Länge" - oder "Tiefe" and "Kürze" usw., but obviously just and directly with "Frühe". - But while "Frühe" exists, "Späte" does not - and is a creation that will not be anybody's cup of tea. - In any case it is not mine. But as a translator one has do deal with it.
Johanna Timm, PhD Dec 6, 2010:
Kleine Satzanalyse Das Ohr folgt den Lauten, die das Vorschreiten der Nacht signalisieren;
dieses Vorschreiten wird signalisiert zuerst
1. Durch Laute des Lärmens und Laute des Lachens und dann
2. durch Laute der Trunkenheit und Laute der Späte,
woraus folgt: Das Vorschreiten der Nacht wird signalisiert durch [..]Laute der Späte.

Man sollte sich also fragen: was stellt sich Herr Musil unter „Lauten der Späte“ vor? Ganz sicher spielt er hier mit den Sprachformeln „Laute der Stille“ (Grillenzirpen) bzw. „Laute der Frühe“ (Vogelsang).

Eine richtig schöne, künstlerische Übersetzung müsste alle diese Überlegungen berücksichtigen.
Roland Nienerza Dec 6, 2010:
grammatisch unkorrekt refers to singular "ist" - instead of the necessary plural "sind". -

The future tense implied in the present is a completely regular and therefore correct feature of De - and probably most other languages, in different degrees. But one has to be aware of it - that a present, particularly in De, can be a future.

As far as your entry is concerned I admit that I did not read much of it after having seen your translation.
Lancashireman Dec 6, 2010:
grammatisch unkorrekt? I don’t normally venture into the Discussion Box once I have posted an answer, but I feel I must respond to RN’s assertion that Musil meant the present tense ‘ist’ to be read as a *future tense*. This is at odds with the rest of RN’s explanation which then suggests that Musil intended to use the *present tense* of ‘wird’ (becomes). Had he read on beyond the headline of my answer, he would have seen that I addressed this very issue in my “Note added at 2 hrs (2010-12-06 02:19:41 GMT)”. In short, I do not believe that Musil made any grammatical error.
Many contributors to KudoZ avoid negative comments from site users who are too idle to read information in detail by posting ‘Siehe unten’ in the headline box. One of the reasons they do this is that the system automatically rejects ‘See below’ as a proposed term!
Roland Nienerza Dec 6, 2010:
laughter due to lateness of the hour - wirkt sicher nicht sehr plausibel.

Das Verb heisst - übrigens grammatisch unkorrekt - "ist", und das ist wohl ein futurisches Präsens, also eigentlich "wird / werden [zu]". - "Um zwei Uhr werden das fröhliche Geplapper und Gelächter schon deutlilch zu Gelalle, Gegröle und besoffener Verblödung."
BrigitteHilgner Dec 6, 2010:
Kausalzusammenhang? ... due to drunkenness and the lateness of the hour. Ich denke, so kann man das auch auffassen.

Proposed translations

4 days
Selected

At 2 a.m. .............are now clearly drunkenness and untime

Having come to this pretty late there was a lot to read through and I'm not sure I grasped all the innuendos.
So I am just trying for a Kunstwort as was suggested here:
" Johanna Timm, PhD: Späte is-as you noted above-a made-up word, ein Kunstwort (rooted, of course, in "spät"). Ideally, and in order to do justice to Robert Musil’s linguistic/poetic/literary genius, one would have to COIN a new English word (or modify an existing one)."

So here is my coining . Just as there is no word Späte, only spät there is no word untime, only untimely.

Or as opolt suggests "one strategy could be to "alienate" an existing expression in order to create a similar effect in English with different means"
So another possibility could be to say something enigmatic or puzzling such as "drunkenness and time"
Note from asker:
Hi Diana, your suggestion isn't bad at all. Of course in English there's no equivalent of that kind of Kunstwort, but the rhythm of "drunkeness and time" is good and still enigmatic.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks!"
+2
19 mins
German term (edited): "Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"

"(At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and) the late hour"

I think it might be better than not to include the word late, as this is the word in the German. Hope this might be of help.
Peer comment(s):
agree Horst Huber (X) : I don't understand the fuss, "the late hour" is most certainly the answer.
7 days
agree Ramey Rieger (X) : with late hour.
7 days
Something went wrong...
-1
2 hrs
German term (edited): "Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"

"At two o'clock in the morning din and laughter below have clearly turned into drink and lateness."


Man würde natürlich "drunkenness" vorziehen, aber das passt eben schlecht schlecht zu"lateness".

Wie ich als Reference belegt habe, gibt es auch nicht den geringsten Grund, "lateness" nur als "Verspätung" zu verstehen.

Im übrigen ist ja für De natives klar, dass "Späte" eine "artistische ad-hoc-Bildung" ist, die in der realen Sprache praktisch gar nicht existiert. - Und diese Kunstform von "Späte" schliesst "Verspätung" auch ein. Musil hätte auch "Spätheit" schreiben können, aber das war ihm wohl noch nicht knapp genug.
Note from asker:
Hallo Roland! Danke für die ausführlichen Kommentare! Entschuldigung für die verspätete Antwort (wie passend!) - ich bin bei KudoZ ganz neu und habe die Benachrichtigung nicht gesehen. Ob ich "ist" ohne "geworden" als "turning into" übersetzt würde, bin ich mir nicht so sicher. Der Übergang von Abend zu Nacht und Nacht zu Tag ist eigentlich nicht im isolierten Satz, sondern in Zusammenhang mit den anderen Sätzen der Geschichte zu lesen. Das konnten Sie aber nicht wissen, da ich nur den einen Satz hier geschrieben habe. Es ist eher so, dass Musil Satz für Satz das Bild des Werdens beschreibt.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Cilian O'Tuama : so the din turns into drink, and laughter into lateness, or the other way round?// You could make a pretty penny if you could convert noise into drink.
15 days
This way round. - The other way round only for those who read from right to left.
disagree Lancashireman : This version does not make sense. Other absurdities posted on this page: “protocol of a night shift police patrol”; “"drinking people are noisy" (drinking people is noisy?); “For me this reads quite good” and “ebriety”.
20 days
Something went wrong...
7 hrs
German term (edited): "Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"

At 2 am the noise and laughter are obvious results of drink and wee hours.

This could do it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2010-12-06 08:22:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could leave out the "results of" and simply "are obviously drink and wee hours"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Helen Shiner : "wee hours" is rather Scots or rather twee, depending on whether the context is Scotland. Maybe improved perhaps with 'due to'?
6 hrs
that would work!
disagree philgoddard : This doesn't make sense.
6 hrs
okay
neutral Lancashireman : Did you really intend your comment on Pauline Alexiou's answer as an 'agree'? (At two a.m. noise and laughter from below clearly *reflect* drunkeness and the lateness of the hour). If so, it makes even less sense than what she was proposing.
12 hrs
I really think I've read this wrong, sorry! I missed the VERB!!!
agree Horst Huber (X) : "Wee hours" might work, depending on the general tone of the translation?
6 days
Something went wrong...
+1
11 hrs

At two a.m. noise and laughter from below clearly indicate drunkeness and the lateness of the hour

sounds of drunkeness and merrymaking indicated the lateness of the hour
Example sentence:

The sounds of drunkeness and merrymaking indicated the lateness of the hour.

Peer comment(s):
agree mill2 : are clearly due to...
32 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
20 mins
German term (edited): Späte

a complete disregard for other people's right to sleep

... drunken behaviour and a complete disregard for other people's right to sleep.

Sorry if that seems a bit long, but it does get the idea across.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2010-12-06 00:47:30 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"the lateness of the hour"
If you are reluctant to leave out spät/late, then this phrase would fit neatly into context.
290,000 hits for complete phrase: http://tinyurl.com/2b2chsb

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-12-06 01:42:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

late-night carousing

- Not Asakusa, where the late-night carousing of drunks, whores and theatergoers was the norm.
- According to the Hartford Courant, his late-night carousing with Mr. Kennedy earned them the reputation in Washington as the “Playboys of the Western World.”
- Some NBA coaches, when their teams come to face the Miami Heat, have referred to the phenomenon as South Beach-itis, where late-night carousing takes a toll on players.
- more...
http://www.wordnik.com/words/late-night carousing

86,000 hits for complete phrase: http://tinyurl.com/27c2j36


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2010-12-06 02:19:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

From the context of the whole paragraph as supplied by Dr Timm, I think that the 'all the ... tipped over' interpretation may be wrong. The author seems to be speaking in general terms rather than about the particular evening in question.

- Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte.
- At two o’clock in the morning, any noise or laughter in the courtyard below clearly counts as [is a clear sign of] drunkenness and late-night carousing.

Contrary to the latest opinion expressed below, 'lateness' would be meaningless in this context. 'Ebriety' (sic) even more so.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 13 hrs (2010-12-06 14:01:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

As has been pointed out by Dr Timm below, ‘Späte’ is a made-up word (by analogy with Kälte, Länge, Höhe etc), so the author is trying to convey an abstract quality. It appears in a couplet with ‘Trunkenheit’ and consequently expresses something about the behaviour or attitude of the person or persons responsible for the ‘Lärmen und Lachen’. People who make a noise a two o’clock in the morning are displaying two characteristics:
1) They are drunk
2) They don’t care about the time

Welcome to KudoZ. As you are new to the system, you may not know that you are expected to close the question by selecting “the most helpful answer”: http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.6#2.6 One of the criteria you may use is peer comments (agree/disagree/neutral) and the intrinsic merit of such comments.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2010-12-06 22:13:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

KudoZ is a pooling of ideas and research. If Johanna were to post her insight as a full answer, I dare say it would be a winner.

On the basis of her interpretation of Musil's text, I would propose the following:

"By two o’clock in the morning, the noise and laughter down below has given way to the occasional drunken outburst and to those other (faint) sounds that one only becomes aware of in the middle of the night."
Peer comment(s):
disagree Thayenga : Disregard for other people's right to sleep does not convey the meaning of "Späte"
6 hrs
Read the whole answer. It develops as the full context emerges.
agree Helen Shiner : with 'lateness of the hour' and 'late-night carousing/revelry'. Also with you on your comments in respect of ebriety and lateness. PS I read everything you wrote...
13 hrs
Untorpedoed. Thanks, H.
disagree Roland Nienerza : This reads like a protocol of a night shift police patrol and not like artistic prose. - As far as "getting the idea across" is concerned, what about "drinking people are noisy"?
13 hrs
At which point did you stop reading?
agree casper (X) : You've suggested an excellent translation of the entire sentence in your Note added at 2 hrs. How about using 'drinking' instead of 'drunkenness' in the context ?
14 hrs
I think they may be on their way home from the pub.
agree philgoddard : Disagreers: I don't think you've read the whole of Andrew's answer.
14 hrs
Thanks, Phil.
Something went wrong...
1 day 10 hrs

At two o'clock after midnight, the loud noises and laughter below clearly tell me...

...[or: betray] that someone is (returning home) roaring drunk in the small hours (of the night).
Something went wrong...
+1
4 days

At two o'clock loud noise and laughter below give way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours

At two o'clock (in the morning) loud noise and laughter below give way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours.

I think there is a bit of jarring with 'late hours' to a native speaker's ears. And I prefer 'give way to' or 'cede' for their poetic effects.

At this late stage in the discussion, I realise I am indebted to debates gone before.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2010-12-10 01:17:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

At two in the morning loud noise and laughter have already given way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours

This is getting very close to Andrew's suggestion by now....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2010-12-10 01:30:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or At two in the morning loud noise and laughter have really given way to sounds of drunkenness and late hours
Peer comment(s):
agree Horst Huber (X) : Yes, but not quite, maybe "give way to sounds of" adds things that should "go without saying"?
3 days 2 hrs
Thanks, Horst, but what can be left out in German cannot be left out in English.
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

more context

"[...]Aber auch das war schon vorgekommen. Nach ein Uhr fängt die Straße an ruhiger zu werden; Gespräche beginnen als Seltenheit zu wirken; es ist hübsch, mit dem Ohr dem Vorschreiten der Nacht zu folgen. Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte. Mir wurde bewußt, daß ich auf etwas wartete, aber ich ahnte nicht, worauf.[...]"
Reference:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jikje/Texts/da.html

Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Lancashireman : Very insightful comment in the Discussion Box. If you were to post it as an answer, I would click on ‘agree’. I have appended yet another addendum to my contribution based on your interpretation.
23 hrs
Danke für das Kompliment :-)
Something went wrong...
1 hr
Reference:

Info

I'm not saying this is a good translation.

The Blackbird
At two o'clock all the clamor and laughter below have clearly tipped over into intoxication and lateness.

It began on one evening much like any other. I'd stayed home, and after my wife had gone to bed, I sat myself down in the study; the only difference that night was that I didn't reach for a book or anything else,, but this too had happened before. After one o'clock the street starts getting quieter; conversations become a rarity; it is pleasant to follow the advent of evening with your ear. At two o'clock all the clamor and laughter below have clearly tipped over into intoxication and lateness. I realized that I was waiting for something, but I didn't know what for. By three o'clock - it was May - the sky grew lighter; I felt my wy through the dark apartment to the bedroom and lay down without a sound. I expected nothing more now but sleep, and that the next morning would bring a day like the one that had just passed. And soon I no longer knew whether I was awake or asleep.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jikje/Texts/bb.html


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2010-12-06 01:28:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Looks like the translator is Jerry van Beers.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral philgoddard : Is it possible that this translator wasn't clear about its meaning either? I don't think 'tipped over into lateness' makes sense.
6 mins
Yes, this is just food for thought.
agree Roland Nienerza : For me this reads quite good. - I would have preferred something like "ebriety" for "intoxication" - but I do not see any reason to avoid "lateness". @ philgoddard - "tipped over etc." makes as much sense as "schon deutlich Späte".// ebriety --> inebriety
27 mins
Inebriety doesn't work for me.
Something went wrong...
1 hr
Reference:

There is no reason to avoid "lateness" - because it does not only mean "being late".

teness noun
Translation of LATENESS
1delay : retraso masculine, atraso masculine, tardanza feminine
2: lo avanzado (de la hora)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/spanish/lateness


ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. lateness - quality of coming late or later in time
timing - the time when something happens
subsequentness, posteriority, subsequence - following in time
earliness - quality of coming early or earlier in time

Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lateness
noun delay, late date, retardation, tardiness, unpunctuality, belatedness, advanced hour A large crowd had gathered despite the lateness of the hour.
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Johanna Timm, PhD : Späte is-as you noted above-a made-up word, ein Kunstwort (rooted, of course, in "spät"). Ideally, and in order to do justice to Robert Musil’s linguistic/poetic/literary genius, one would have to COIN a new English word (or modify an existing one).
37 mins
disagree Helen Shiner : Lateness used in this way is incomprehensible to a native speaker./Context is all. Clearly I do not say that 'lateness' does not exist as a word. Lateness on its own does not work; it would signify tardiness. Lateness of the hour does work.
12 hrs
This comment is in surprisingly sharp contrast to established lexicography which, to be sure, is made "by natives for natives" - and overlooks the fact, that "Späte" will be rather incomprehensible for many De natives too.
neutral Cilian O'Tuama : I'd say most German natives would understand Späte, even if they don't recognise it.
15 days
Of course one understands and even recognises it - as a somewhat punning parallel formation to "Frühe", which is in the language, weil "Späte" is not.
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