Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

lieux de mémoire

English translation:

cultural heritage site

Added to glossary by Hotrockmantis
May 17, 2011 16:24
13 yrs ago
7 viewers *
French term

lieux de mémoire

French to English Marketing Tourism & Travel
I am currently translating a tourist info brochure and have a problem with "lieux de mémoire" as in the sentence below :

Témoins d’un passé riche et mouvementé, les lieux de mémoire y sont plus nombreux qu’ailleurs.

I have tried "memorials" but that doesn't quite read correctly. Any help would be gratefully accepted.
Change log

May 17, 2011 16:25: Stéphanie Soudais changed "Term asked" from "\"lieux de mémoire\"" to "lieux de mémoire" , "Field" from "Other" to "Marketing"

Discussion

Dieezah May 18, 2011:
@ Graham You are right... And yet... In Martinique we have had the same difficulty conveying this concept in tourism documents ( that's why people keep forgetting the Historical aspect of the island .... ) A land where the spirit of bygone times (slavery era, French empire era)still lingers in various places... Even French tourists from mainland France fail to understand it...
silvester55 May 18, 2011:
@ Dieezah Tu as entièrement raison , mis à part que le texte fait partie d'une brochure touristique .Alors , dans ce contexte , les gens visitent ces endroits qui ont une histoire , une âme , une mémoire .Des endroits qui font partie de l'héritage culturel d'un pays , des événements qui ont changé le cours de l'histoire ( en bien ou mal ).Bref en un mot : des endroits inoubliables pour des années à venir .
Graham macLachlan May 18, 2011:
If Dieezah is right "remembrance" is a key concept and should be included (place of remembrance, remembrance site, etc.)
Dieezah May 18, 2011:
And again I feel compelled to add this for all who want to post answers,
the text seems to be about a former colonial territory (with a huge slavery-related History) just like my home place. In this light, "lieux de mémoire" is closely tied to the concept of "devoir de mémoire", sometimes as in places people people keep going to when they want to either celebrate their heritage, perform ceremonials....
silvester55 May 17, 2011:
@ Hotrockmantis type " places of rememberance " in google , you'll be as convinced as I am ( although it is not my suggestion , LOL )
Hotrockmantis (asker) May 17, 2011:
Quite agree with the wiki notes and the literal translation - thanks. Hwvr, "realms of memory" doesn't quite click with me given the context. Would an anglophone tourist understand the concept in the same way as a francophone one? I think not, but then...
silvester55 May 17, 2011:
@ Hotrockmantis but " realms of memory " IS the translation of " lieux de mémoire".
and it can be different things ( see my wiki notes ).
Hotrockmantis (asker) May 17, 2011:
I think I'll opt for "historical sites" but I waver between that and historical/cultural sites. Two examples: 1. The Piton Rouge - a small mountain that was used by slave owners as a lookout post as they hunted escaped slaves. 2. A sailors cemetery. The term "memorial sites" seems odd in English. I like "realms of memory" but that is rather too metaphysic for a simple tourist brochure (?)
silvester55 May 17, 2011:
notes Wikipedia Le lieu de mémoire est un concept historique mis en avant par l'ouvrage les Lieux de Mémoire, paru sous la direction de Pierre Nora entre 1984 et 1992. Le mot fait son entrée dans le dictionnaire Le Grand Robert de la langue française de 1993 et devient d’un usage courant.
Selon Pierre Nora, « un lieu de mémoire dans tous les sens du mot va de l'objet le plus matériel et concret, éventuellement géographiquement situé, à l'objet le plus abstrait et intellectuellement construit. »1 Il peut donc s'agir d'un monument, d'un personnage important, d'un musée, des archives, tout autant que d'un symbole, d'une devise, d'un événement ou d'une institution.
"Un objet devient lieu de mémoire quand il échappe à l'oubli, par exemple avec l'apposition de plaques commémoratives, et quand une collectivité le réinvestit de son affect et de ses émotions." 2
Helen Shiner May 17, 2011:
@ Tony M To be honest, I agree absolutely with you about the FR term. I was just put off from posting 'memorial sites' as an answer by what the Asker has said. Perhaps you could clarify again, Hockrockmantis.
Tony M May 17, 2011:
@ Helen I don't think these can really be classed as "simple sites of historic interest" — the term in FR is quite specific, albeit perhaps rather over-used...
Helen Shiner May 17, 2011:
Memorial sites @ Tony M - what you are referring to are memorial sites, but it sounds as if our Asker may want to include simple sites of historic interest. I suppose the former is a sub-set of the latter, but may be too specific here.
Tony M May 17, 2011:
I think the idea of 'memory' is vital From my experience of this sort of site here in France, I'd say there is a very specific idea of "Lest we forget" etc. that should not be simply wiped away from any translation.

A perfect example of this is the massacred village of Oradour-sur-Glane not far from where I live. This is so much more than a mere 'site of historical interest' — as indeed is my own village, where Resistance fighter Violette Szabo was captured.
Helen Shiner May 17, 2011:
with Gilla Definitely 'sites' and 'historical interest' is good unless you want something more poetic making reference somehow to memory.
Evans (X) May 17, 2011:
In that case perhaps "sites of historical interest" might serve quite well in your context, as it is sufficiently vague to cover most possibilities.
Hotrockmantis (asker) May 17, 2011:
Many thanks for the speedy responses! They are more like "historical sites" but not in the conventional "castle", "stately home" etc. They are buildings but also natural sites of historical significance - places where slaves hid etc.
Helen Shiner May 17, 2011:
More context please What kind of places are these? Sites steeped in memories or memorial sites of some kind?

Proposed translations

+2
2 hrs
Selected

heritage site

Cornwall Heritage Sites
Cornwall heritage sites Cornish historical attractions.
www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk

Map of English Heritage sites in Northumberland ...
www.visitnorthumberland.com/site/.../english-heritage-sites

On this website you can view the locations of built heritage sites from the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA)
maps.ehsni.gov.uk/MapViewer/Default.aspx

A major heritage site in India will join Mount Rushmore, St Kilda...
www.heraldscotland.com/.../unique-project-to-map-heritage-s...
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : A possibility, though unfortunately the FR do also talk a lot about 'patrimoine', tending thereby to differentiate the two.
10 mins
it seems to me that, in the context provided, the term is being used very loosely perhaps to cash-in on the "remembrance industry" which is steadily gearing up for 2014
agree Dieezah : Right... I thing "patrimoine" would not quite fit here... Maybe elsewhere in the same brochure though...
17 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for (all) the response(s) I eventually opted for "cultural heritage sites" as these are relatively small sites significant for what happened there as opposed to what had been constructed."
+5
6 mins

places of remembrance

I have used this in the past, but mainly for texts relating to places where something historical has happened and is commemorated in some way.

We often talk of gardens of remembrance, etc.

I don't know if that is the case for your text, the fact that it mentions "mouvementé" suggests this might be the case.

It is a possibility anyway.
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : certainly a strong contender, depending on context
8 mins
thanks, Tony!
agree Jean Lachaud
26 mins
Thanks JL!
agree silvester55 : I have a strong feeling this is it http://www.rouentourisme.com/Default.aspx?select=91&level=3&...|_Mus%C3%A9es_et_monuments_-_Normandie
2 hrs
thanks silvester55
agree B D Finch
2 hrs
thanks, Barbara
neutral Troy D : My favorite at first, it doesn't seem to fit the example sentence, especially given the discussion info. Places of remembrance seems to limit the meaning to officially marked sites, without regard to the collective memory of the inhabitants
2 hrs
I'm not so sure about it limiting the meaning to officially marked sites, and I still think it could work here, although an exact match with the French concept is probably an illusory quest.
agree codestrata
20 hrs
thanks, codestrata
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+6
14 mins

locations of historical significance

Numerous locations are of historical signifcance, due to the town's (?) rich and often turbulent past.

Peer comment(s):

agree Leslie Marcus : We are on the same wavelength with the "historical" idea
1 min
agree Helen Shiner : sites of historical or national significance perhaps
22 mins
agree cc in nyc : I like "places of historical significance"
35 mins
agree Tony M : I didn't initally like this idea, but in the light of Asker's extra context, I think perhaps this might work after all.
2 hrs
agree Verginia Ophof
2 hrs
agree Dieezah
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
14 mins

memorial grounds or historical grounds

Would this work? It is used for the Berlin Wall...
I thought of "places of pilgrimage" as well but I'm guessing you will veto that suggestion as it is too religious sounding...
Something went wrong...
+1
5 mins

sites of memory

www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/201/articles/89NoraLieuxIntroRepresentations.pdf

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Note added at 10 mins (2011-05-17 16:34:27 GMT)
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http://www.port.ac.uk/research/africanoralhistory/memoire/

'Our interest in lieux de memoire where memory crystallizes and secretes itself has occurred at a particular historical moment, a turning point where consciousness of a break with the past is bound up with the sense that memory has been torn-but torn in such a way as to pose the problem of the embodiment of memory in certain sites where a sense of historical continuity persists. There are lieux de memoire, sites of memory, because there are no longer milieux de memoire, real environments of memory.'
(http://www.scribd.com/doc/39552983/Between-History-and-Memor...

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Note added at 16 mins (2011-05-17 16:40:21 GMT)
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'Sites of Memory
Pierre Nora edited a monumental work of seven volumes about the loci memoriae of France, entitled "Les lieux de mémoire" (1984–92). What are such sites, or realms, of memory?
"A lieu de mémoire is any significant entity, whether material or non-material in nature, which by dint of human will or the work of time has become a symbolic element of the memorial heritage of any community (in this case, the French community)" (Nora 1996: XVII)
In other words, sites of memory are "where [cultural] memory crystallizes and secretes itself" (Nora 1989: 7). These include:
> places such as archives, museums, cathedrals, palaces, cemeteries, and memorials;
> concepts and practices such as commemorations, generations, mottos, and all rituals;
> objects such as inherited property, commemorative monuments, manuals, emblems, basic texts, and symbols.'
(https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/citd/holtorf/2.6.html)

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Note added at 30 mins (2011-05-17 16:54:10 GMT)
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'The concept of sites of memory
It is normally said that you have to be fixed in space and in time if you want to belong somewhere. The sites of memory are, in the proper sense of the word, crucial. They are crossroads. They are the points where space and time meet memory. Piere Nora has tried to define a difference between milieu de mémoire and lieu de mémoire. The sites of memory are the "milieux", the real environments of memory, but today, with our lack of memory, we have to be content with lieux de mémoire, places which remind us of the past, of a (broken) memory. (cf. Morley, p. 87)'
(http://pov.imv.au.dk/Issue_08/section_2/artc5B.html)
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : Well, the weight of evidence is there, certainly — but it still sounds clumsy and like a too-literal translation to my ears!
8 mins
You are kind, Tony, and I am well aware of the weird-sounding phrase, but...
neutral silvester55 : translation may be awful , but see my notes
28 mins
Only the first excerpt, hopefully. It's also translated as realms of memory. Thanks, silvester. B. (Oh, and we posted the same Toronto ref. - see note two above.)
agree R.C. (X)
1 hr
Grazie, Raffaela! B.
Something went wrong...
29 mins

realms of memory


realms of memory npl.
lieux de mémoire
http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-french/realms of memor...

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Note added at 33 mins (2011-05-17 16:58:01 GMT)
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Sites of Memory

Pierre Nora edited a monumental work of seven volumes about the loci memoriae of France, entitled "Les lieux de mémoire" (1984–92). What are such sites, or realms, of memory?

"A lieu de mémoire is any significant entity, whether material or non-material in nature, which by dint of human will or the work of time has become a symbolic element of the memorial heritage of any community (in this case, the French community)" (Nora 1996: XVII)
In other words, sites of memory are "where [cultural] memory crystallizes and secretes itself" (Nora 1989: 7). These include:
places such as archives, museums, cathedrals, palaces, cemeteries, and memorials;
concepts and practices such as commemorations, generations, mottos, and all rituals;
objects such as inherited property, commemorative monuments (see image right), manuals, emblems, basic texts, and symbols.

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Note added at 36 mins (2011-05-17 17:01:05 GMT)
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looks like the same text , OUPS ,

I'll post another one , many hits on G

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Note added at 38 mins (2011-05-17 17:02:26 GMT)
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The impact in France of Lieux de mémoire, the magisterial seven-volume collaborative project led by Pierre Nora, was consecrated in 1993 when the phrase "site of memory" entered the Grand dictionnaire Robert de la langue française. The publication of a three-volume English-language edition under the title Realms of Memory makes accessible to American readers 46 of the original 132 articles that were published in Lieux de mémoire between 1981 and 1992.1 They have been superbly translated by Arthur Goldhammer and come with a useful foreword by Lawrence Kritzman and a new preface by Nora.

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/106.3/ah00090...

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Note added at 39 mins (2011-05-17 17:03:51 GMT)
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Editorial Reviews
Review
<P>This is an indispensable guide to understanding France and the French. As usual, Arthur Goldhammer's translation is superb.</P> (Foreign Affairs )

<P>This unusual book deals fascinatingly with everything from the creation of the rousing anthem "La Marseillaise" to the changing role of Joan of Arc in France's collective memory. Even the Eiffel Tower shines forth in surprising new facets.</P> (Chicago Tribune )
http://www.amazon.com/Realms-Memory-Rethinking-Conflicts-Div...
Peer comment(s):

neutral Tony M : I think the term 'realms of memory' has been coined specifically to cover all those aspects referred to above that don't represent an actual physical 'site'; but 'realms' is a word that needs using with care in EN — a potential register problem here.
1 hr
it's ok , I already changed my mind , I don't like it either ! I agree on Gilla's suggestion , that's the perfect one ( google it )
Something went wrong...
+2
55 mins

historically evocative sites

Hopefully this suggestion helps keep the idea of memory at the forefront.
Peer comment(s):

agree AllegroTrans
2 hrs
Thank you!
agree Dieezah : This is a faithful way of translating it.... Especially given the context...
14 hrs
Thanks, Dieezah!
Something went wrong...
+3
1 hr

memorial sites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangborn-Herndon_Memorial_Site

The Canadian National Vimy Memorial is a memorial site in France dedicated to the memory of Canadian Expeditionary Force members killed during the First World War. It also serves as the place of commemoration for First World War Canadian soldiers killed or presumed dead in France who have no known grave. The monument is the centrepiece of a 250-acre (100 ha) preserved battlefield park that encompasses a portion of the grounds over which the Canadian Corps made their assault during the Battle of Vimy Ridge, a military engagement fought as part of the Battle of Arras.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_National_Vimy_Memorial

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Note added at 1 hr (2011-05-17 17:51:37 GMT)
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Buchenwald memorial site near Weimar
Buchenwald concentration camp on Ettersberg hill near Weimar, which operated as a labour camp between 1937 and 1945, was one of the largest in Germany. A total of 250,000 people from all over Europe were imprisoned at the camp during this period, over 50,000 of whom did not survive. After the camp was liberated in 1945, the site continued to be used as an internment camp by the occupying Soviet forces.
http://www.germany-tourism.co.uk/EGB/attractions_events/muse...
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : I think this is probably the best, all-encompassing term
6 mins
Thanks, Tony
agree SafeTex : This is the one I'd use or as sm else said, 'memorial grounds' if it is a cemetery
13 mins
Thanks, SafeTex
agree Yolanda Broad
9 hrs
Something went wrong...
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