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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

Stammtischdimension

English translation:

a popular myth

Added to glossary by Ramey Rieger (X)
Nov 8, 2013 08:15
10 yrs ago
1 viewer *
German term

Stammtischdimension

German to English Art/Literary Slang Spoken interview about the German Economic Miracle
„Fleiß ist eine Eigenschaft, die zumindest in Europa aber auch sonst in der Welt ziemlich gleichmäßig verteilt ist.

Die Deutschen waren natürlich fleißig, sie waren motiviert, aber entscheidend war etwas anderes – von daher ist das eine *** Stammtischdimension ***, sonst nichts.

I'm assuming a "Stammtischdimension" is something not borne out by the facts, but I need confirmation and a compact way of saying it...
Proposed translations (English)
3 +5 a popular myth
3 +3 one-dimensional
3 +1 cocktail party logic
4 pertinent only by pub standards
3 bar discussions
3 drinking buddies` perspective
3 Public house platitude
Change log

Nov 20, 2013 18:10: Ramey Rieger (X) Created KOG entry

Discussion

oa_xxx (X) Nov 12, 2013:
Since when do people who meet regularly over food and beer automatically have a narrow outlook or lack of perspective? :) I dont think its all that terribly negative, just popular notions that may have an element of truth in them but are simply a small part of a much larger whole - superficial, one-dimensional (as Andrew suggests), oversimplified etc., perfect subject for social gatherings, by no means do I think that "pub" has to be kept in the translation, I was partly just arguing that as its a translation of a spoken text, I personally believe you can be a bit more adventurous when a person deliberately uses a word that is not overly common in their own language, of course German allows for this and words are made up all the time, but spoken English is not the same as written either. Plenty of good options here anyhow, perhaps the asker will let us know how s/he phrased it in the end.
Horst Huber (X) Nov 12, 2013:
It might help to parse the meaning. The author is suggesting that Germans are successful possibly for other reasons than sheer diligence. That they see it that way, goes the suggestion, is a "Stammtischdimension" meaning a narrowed outlook common to people who meet regularly over food and beer, who as they say here "chew the fat". It is a perspective, or rather a lack of one.
Lonnie Legg Nov 12, 2013:
...*-dimension* Everyone seems so focussed on "Stammtisch". Sticking closer to the original, no need to stray (see my post): "Dimension" isn't the same thing as "Perspektive", "Sichtweise", "Annahme", "Mythos" or "Irrglaube"...
Horst Huber (X) Nov 10, 2013:
@Orla The sad, maybe, thing is that people at a "Stammtisch" take things all too seriously. The chief thing: it almost requires a parochial lack of perspective, and preferably no direct experience. "As the grandson of a xxy, I should know this ..." "My brother-in-law is a such and such and he says ...". It used to be BILD and DER SPIEGEL where the Stammtisch people got their ideas from and nobody let facts get in the way of firmly held convictions.
Kirsten Bodart Nov 9, 2013:
I agree It also does not have much to do with pub talk or drinking in general at all, IMO. It's just an image, it's not a real indication of where this theory was propagated. At any rate, apparently it was British newspaper The Times that coined the term, which was then used (somewhat gratefully too perhaps) in German too. Many books were written about it, so logically it's not that much a product of beer, but mainly a slight exaggeration that was perpetuated by people who were all too eager to perpetuate it.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 9, 2013:
The author is trying to get across the image of the way the German people looked at their diligence/industriousness, which was/is a matter of some pride. He allows for their industry, but limits it to a particular perspective - it is not a decisive factor, in his opinion. I think we all agree on that. I also believe that the author was not reducing the German attitude - from their point of view - to the lowest common denominator, but pointing out the angle from which it was viewed. Perhaps 'pub talk perspective' would cover it?
And Michael, if Stammtischdimension were so run-of-the-mill, I don't think we would be making such an effort to translate it properly, would we?
Michael Martin, MA Nov 9, 2013:
@orla I don't see anything odd about "Stammtischdimension" in this context. It's a run-of-the-mill-expression (with lots of variations of course, e.g. "Stammtischgelaber, Stammtischgerede, Stammtischgefasel") which, in my mind, leaves little doubt about the intended meaning. Looks like "pub talk" could be a feasible translation in the context although it's not widely used. But the venue is less important than the suggestion of simplistic arguments (cheap shots) being advanced in situations often dominated by crowd behavior where people feel compelled to pander to the lowest common denominator. Typical venues are pubs, parties, bleachers, trains, doctor's offices, you name it.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 9, 2013:
pub perspective I still favor my very first idea.
oa_xxx (X) Nov 9, 2013:
should be taken with a pinch of salt... I still prefer pub talk! As its a translation of an interview I think its important to stick closer to what the person said than in a normal translation, we all use odd turns of phrase and made up words when talking that we'd never use in writing - this is an odd word in German, but is understandable, why not use something similar in English? Found this funny guide to British pub etiquette here:
'But pub-arguments are not like arguments in the real world. They are conducted in accordance with a strict code of etiquette. This code is based on the First Commandment of pub law: "Thou shalt not take things too seriously".' http://www.sirc.org/publik/ptpchap4.html ;)
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 8, 2013:
Besides, it's worthwhile to wait and ponder until the YES! shouts in your ear. I've turned some phrases or terms over and over for hours, and it has always been worth it.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 8, 2013:
@Heather there are certain terms that are worth the effort, but in this case I'm amazed at how long it took. Popular myth is really quite a common expression. Still, you'll only find me discussing terms when my creative input is not required elsewhere. Take care.
Time is on my side, yes it is...
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
Thanks Kirsten. I think the "popular German" aspect should be clear in the context of the documentary.
Kirsten Bodart Nov 8, 2013:
What about 'in that sense, it is/was nothing more than a German popular myth'? (is or was depending on whether he's using historical present or not). If you are looking to limit the words, then popular myth definitely fits the bill, because historians and economists can also believe in their own myths, but you should include the German idea in it somehow, otherwise it takes away from the meaning that they were only looking inside and failed to see the wider context and exaggerated their own merits, as it were.
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
@Heather: know what you mean, lot of effort for one term.
I very much appreciate the time everyone has spent helping with this.
I just want to make sure that the meaning is accurate... ;-)
Cheers!
Heather McCrae Nov 8, 2013:
popular/general/urban myth all a matter of taste :) no probs, Ramey
I'm not in it for the points, I just like to brainstorm
but it is worthwhile spending so much time on one term!!!!????!!!!
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
@Kirsten: yes, appreciate the subtleties you allude to about only getting a blinkered view of the wider reality. Clearly each country has a somewhat insular perspective, especially back then when the possibilities for communication and information dissemination were limited. I need to keep the translation compact, however, so I can't use too many extra words to refine the meaning...
Kirsten Bodart Nov 8, 2013:
Popular myth isn't bad but you have to make sure the historian distances himself from that, both in terms of what people (including economists) thought then and what historians think now. So you could add 'back then'. Depending on the context, you could also go for 'their (very) own perspective of things'. Stammtisch is the table where you always sit with your friends in your regular café/bar, so from that perspective, there will never be any other input than that of your friends, which warps your view. I think that's what he means. It's not a stereotype or 'misconception' per se (it has been proven to be one, but it's not in the strictest sense of the word), but it's a dimension in terms of how the people in Germany thought about their own Wirtschaftswunder, which was of course down to fact that they were the most motivated and the most industrious, not because it was the natural order of things. Naturally that isn't true, but they only talked to other Germans after all, who confirmed what they said. Hence the Stammtisch-
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
Popular myth @Ramey/Heather: Sounds good, and I'm sure it can't be too far from the speaker's intended meaning.
Shame you can't make a joint posting with Heather... ;-)
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 8, 2013:
@Heather It just occurred to me that you may be piqued at my use of myth. My apologies. It was 'popular' that brought me to my suggestion, I only remembered that you had posted 'urban myth' after the fact.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 8, 2013:
local/national/popular rumor would keep things relatively neutral - this is not disparaging.
OR:
A rumor that was considered/assumed fact.
A popular myth!!! that's it. I'll post it an see what happens - it's a standard slang expression and non-judgemental.
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
Context This is from a 45 minute documentary about the German economic miracle following WWII. I don't know how much more context would be helpful to provide without pasting the entire transcript. The journalist is investigating the prevalent idea of the "industrious German" being responsible for the German economic miracle following the Second World War. As part of this, he's interviewing historians, people who were responsible for the reconstruction at the time, etc.

The quoted historian is being interviewed about this, and he indicates that the Germans were not the only ones to experience record economic growth, and based on the comparison of annual hours worked, did not work any harder than other countries.

@Heather: I like the sound of "urban myth", but is this what he means... ;-)
@Ramey: in the sense of "self-glorification"? Wish I know how negative/neutral "Stammtischdimension" is intended to be...
Andrea Muller (X) Nov 8, 2013:
Picking up from Ramey's contribution, could you say something like: yes, of course the Germans were motivated etc, but this is just something they like to say about themselves (or people like to say about them ). The real decisive factor is [something else] though
Heather McCrae Nov 8, 2013:
probably the "etwas anderes" is all the help the Germans received after the war to help build up their industry, etc.
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 8, 2013:
bluster/bravado would be the term that comes to mind. The Germans are very proud of their industriousness and sit around at the pub polishing their image. But perhaps this is too negative?
Heather McCrae Nov 8, 2013:
what about an urban myth?
Andrea Muller (X) Nov 8, 2013:
Without knowing the context, I would have thought it's more like stereotype, and not necessarily misconception. I was thinking of pub talk too, but maybe that's more like rumour, and I better leave judgment on that to English native speakers anyway. And as this is not a 'proper' German word, although there are some google.de hits for it, probably only the person who made the statement knows exactly what they meant by it
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
@franglish: I haven't found out what the "etwas anderes" was yet; it must be further on in the film, but he already says it wasn't just the Marshal Plan either.

The next section is the narrator talking:

Die Zahlen sind eindeutig: Vergleicht man die Jahresarbeitszeiten europäischer Länder, dann haben wir Deutschen nach dem Krieg nicht mehr gearbeitet als andere. Und noch etwas überrascht: Wir sind gar nicht das einzige Land gewesen, das ein Wirtschaftswunder erlebte. Im Gegenteil: Überall in Europa gab es Rekordwachstum. Trotzdem halten wir uns für fleißiger.

@Ramey: the quoted speaker is the German Wirtschaftshistoriker, Werner Abelshauser. The tone is factual, not disparaging. He's saying that the "German industriousness" following the war wasn't a uniquely German trait.

@Alexandra:
I think "popular misconception" is the right sentiment, but is there a slang term for this?
Ramey Rieger (X) Nov 8, 2013:
Who is speaking? I'm thinking along the lines of 'pub perspective'. If this a German speaking about Germans or an 'outsider' looking in, it would make some difference. The general tone is hard to capture from just one sentence. Is the text disparaging, or merely pointing out other factors, besides diligence, that contributed to the boom?
franglish Nov 8, 2013:
@pj-ffm ... aber entscheidend war etwas anderes - what does this refer to? That would give us additional info.
Alexandra Reuer Nov 8, 2013:
Are we actually talking about a misconception? Or is it more about irrelevant clichés? I'm not sure he's actually agreeing or disagreeing with these supposed German qualities, but simply saying that it's moot to list them here. That's my impression, anyway, but you might have more context.
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
Popular misconception? I want to maybe say something like "pub talk" to address the Stammtisch aspect, but that's not quite right. I think I need something a bit slang for "popular misconception".
Steffen Walter Nov 8, 2013:
Made-up term I believe that this German compound noun is a made-up term.
Alexandra Reuer Nov 8, 2013:
I would venture to say that it's an invention of the speaker. Though I'm sure the term "Stammtischdimension" has probably been used before, but perhaps not in connection with this particular meaning. "Stammtisch" lends itself to all kinds of compound words, some maybe more common than others ;-)...
pj-ffm (asker) Nov 8, 2013:
Thanks Alexandra.
Yes, sort of unjustified stereotype is the direction I'm thinking in, but I wonder if someone has come across this term or if it's an invention of the speaker...
Alexandra Reuer Nov 8, 2013:
Stereotype It sounds to me like they might mean "these are nothing more than the usual stereotypes" and not relevant in any shape or form - which is sort of what you're suspecting, isn't it?

Proposed translations

+5
1 hr
Selected

a popular myth

someimtes it takes a moment to hit upon the right term, but I am relatively certain that this is what you're looking for.
Note from asker:
Thanks Ramey, sounds right to me.
Peer comment(s):
agree franglish : or popular belief// True indeed, Ramey, and myth is more flamboyant, something the Germans needed after their defeat to restore their own confidence.
44 mins
I would stick with the 'myth' as it has a touch of the ethereal/ethnic about it, whereas belief could be global. Which, I believe worked. Let's see how the coming generation proceeds on this theme.
agree Kirsten Bodart : best short option.
1 hr
Thank you Kirsten, have a lovely weekend.
neutral Lancashireman : 'Myth' would suggest that German Fleissigkeit was an illusion and played no part. Seems a bit harsh, though I know how irritating it can be when this accolade is self-awarded.
4 hrs
Hello Sir Andrew! I see your point, the author seems to think otherwise. I hold these truths to be self-evident?
agree Johanna Timm, PhD : I really like “pub perspective” suggested by you in the d-box: it does justice to the drinking element and is a slightly more novel turn of phrase than the common “popular myth” (regularly used for the equally common “weit verbreiteter/s Irrtum/Märchen)
7 hrs
Hi Johanna! I am also quite fond of 'pub perspective', but it didn't seem to rouse many other fans. (SIGH) We'll just have to file it away for our own use, okay?
agree oa_xxx (X) : I agree with Johanna but this is good too, maybe a bit stronger than the original, as in I dont think he's saying its a complete myth but the amount of importance that's generally attached to it is the myth.
1 day 5 hrs
Thanks Orla. I'm going to propose 'pub perspective' one more time in the discussion box, maybe it just needs more exposure?
agree palilula (X)
9 days
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks Ramey, and everyone else! In the context, I think this fits best, i.e. that German industriousness, though real, was not the fundamental reason for the economic miracle, despite this since become an accepted truth in Germany."
3 hrs

bar discussions

I don't know the equivalent of this in your language, but for me, essential about stammtischdiskussionen is the superficial and undocumented way that some facts are treated - they are not necessarily myths, but definitely not researched. Another aspect is the context of the alcohol consumption related to a stammtisch
Something went wrong...
+1
12 hrs

cocktail party logic

The cocktail party connotation is well established. It serves the same purpose as the German Stammtisch theme - deriding a certain lowball discourse found on TV or wherever large groups of people congregate.

"Of course, the Germans were industrious and motivated. But that wasn't the most important factor. That's why this smacks of cocktail party logic (has the ring of cocktail party logic) - nothing else."

Another example below:
"Such a discussion would not have been compatible with the current level of philosophical discussion at Harvard, which apparently seldom rises above the level of cocktail-party chatter."http://m759.xanga.com/page/308/
Peer comment(s):
neutral Lancashireman : Lowball discourse? Substitute the internet for TV and this could be a coded reference to KuDoZ ("wherever large groups of people congregate").
2 hrs
Well, people hear (read) what they wanna hear... Those conclusions are yours, not mine. Don't see how that invalidates the concept.
agree Horst Huber (X) : Stammtisch is to cocktail party as Hofbräuhaus to Plaza Hotel. This would be translation by transposition.
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
16 hrs

drinking buddies` perspective

Or "outlook"?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Lancashireman : Horst, buddy, what sort of keyboard are you using? Your apostrophe is leaning backwards.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
+3
3 hrs

one-dimensional

a somewhat one-dimensional analysis
http://www.exc16.de/cms/1534.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-11-08 12:40:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's another, PJ:
a skewed interpretation

or something with 'superficial' (as suggested by MVZ)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-11-08 13:05:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a one-dimensional way of looking at things

Cruder:
... but that's just the beer talking
http://www.rhapsody.com/artist/pat-kinsella/album/thats-just...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2013-11-08 18:01:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

a one-dimensional view as seen through the bottom of a beer glass.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day9 hrs (2013-11-09 17:30:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I will comply with site rules and add my notes here rather than in the Discussion Box.

There are three contributors arguing for the inclusion of 'pub'.
I don't see how "a pub perspective" could be worked into the text. A more natural way of phrasing this would be:
the sort of thing that goes down well in a pub
the type of argument you might hear in a pub
I don't see why "a compact way of saying it" should take precedence over the criterion of producing natural prose.

Will you be returning to close this Q, PJ, or leaving it to the robot like your last one? http://www.proz.com/kudoz/5351098

Note from asker:
Thanks for your suggestions, Andrew. Viewing German industriousness as the reason for the economic miracle is certainly "simplistic/one-dimensional", but I went with "popular myth" here. The myth being that hard work was the reason, not that German hard work is a myth.
Peer comment(s):
agree Helen Shiner : I think it means that the analysis was shallow, so this makes more sense to me that anything to do with a myth or stereotype. So, yes to your superficial or one-dimensional. A discussion, the author is suggesting, that lacks academic rigour or some such.
6 hrs
agree Cilian O'Tuama : I was thinking along the lines of "simplistic", so my agree goes here.
14 hrs
Thanks, Cilian. 'Simplistic' is good.
agree oa_xxx (X)
1 day 3 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 13 hrs

pertinent only by pub standards

None of the terms posted so far pertain to the "pub sentiment gauge" implied in the source term.
Something went wrong...
1 day 14 hrs

Public house platitude

Not necessarily incorrect, but a widely-accepted view of the "common man"
Something went wrong...
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