Mario Freitas May 2, 2020:

Pt-Br Guys, please note Lilian needs a solution in Pt-Br. The word "vidrado" exists in Pt-Br, however with a completely different meaning that has nothing to do with glass. The correct term in Pt-Br is "vitrificado", which is why she chose it. I understand the ProZ glossary should always be fit for both Pt-Pt and Pt-Br, but it's up to the asker to add the other variant when they choose the best answer. It doesn't happen often, unfortunately.

Rodrigo Gonçalves May 2, 2020:

It was my pleasure!!! I learnt a lot about this subject from your experience. Thank you very much :-)

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

@Rodrigo Well it looks like the terms are interchangeable, judjing by this Portuguese site (i evn played the audio to be sure :-) So we learn something new every day :-) I think it all depends on "popular" usage. I admit that in the industry (any industry) there are terms used that are very specific so as not to confuse, but in general usage terminology merges. Our conversation has been very stimulating - thank you.
https://www.hisour.com/pt/ceramic-glaze-51762/

Rodrigo Gonçalves May 1, 2020:

Dear Nick. I think that, with your kind help, I finally understood the concept in a professional and expert context... No question that "vidrado" is the correct match for PT-PT but I just want you to take a look at this google search, considering only the references in PT-BR... Is this a match or not? "cerâmica com esmalte cru" (if not, the discussion has come to an end, but it seems that "esmalte" can also be a valid translation in Brazil) https://www.google.com/search?q=ceramica com esmalte cru&oq=...

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

Underglaze - sob o vidrado
Overglaze - Por cima do vidrado (over glaze)
Os azulejos com vidrado cru são apropriados para pinturas com corantes. Azulejos em chacota para trabalhar com pastéis e lápis cerâmicos e posterior vidragem, com uma capa de vidro transparente.
This site has everything :-)
http://www.r2w-ceramica.pt/azulejos.html

Rodrigo Gonçalves May 1, 2020:

Muito interessante Nick... E complexo... Qual seria sua sugestão de tradução para o trecho completo então (considerando as três ocorrências do termo "glaze" no texto). Só posso dizer que, segundo entendi, o termo underglazed não teria uma tradução exata então? Deveria ser mantido inalterado...

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

@Rodrigo here is one of my lessons - it gets a bit "mental" (crazy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StrNzIw6-VU

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

@Rodrigo Por exemplo envidraçar em Pt/Pt is to put in windows or "glazing"
And vitrificar
https://www.google.com/search?q="vitrificar"&client=firefox-...
I wull give yo an example of vitrified from my ceramics workshop
We biscguit fire porcelain paste at a low temperature (chacota), then we glaze it (vidrar) - the biscuit fired porcelain (chacota) is porous so the high temperature "vidrado" adheres. The pieces are then fired at at higher temperature 1200 degrees or thereabouts and the "vidrado" fuses with the substrate, and, if the temperature is high enough, the porcelain "virifies" and takes on a translicent quality. In other words the chenical composition of the porcelain is formulated to create vitrification (fine bone china)
https://ceramicartsnetwork.org/ceramic-recipes/reference/vit...
The work of us potters is almost "Alchemy" but with years of experience we can usually predict the results. It is possible to vitrify ceramic pastes without glazes - sush as grés vitrificado - depends on what results you want acheive.

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

@Rodrigo Admito que tive poucas alunos Brasileiros. Entretanto, os traduções que tenho feito no âmbito de cerâmica para Fundação do Oriente e outras a questão do "Underglaze" e "Overglaze" é interessante, refira geralmente de decoração. Utilizo os termos originais com um explicação. Underglaze - qualquer processo aplicado a peça, e depois a peça está vidrado , em seguinte Overglaze - qualquer processo (geralmente decoração - azulejos etc) aplicado a peça em cima do vidrado (geralmente cru) But in the case of "terceiro fogo" (decoração) em cima do vidrado já cozido.
Unfired glaze - vidrado cru, mas não "precozido"
To prevent glaze (from) - para evitar o vidrado .....
No portuguese version - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underglaze
Esmalte is used in Pt Pt in two ways - peças metalicas esmaltadas - enamelled pieces (mugs etc)
here is an explanation and the diference (vitreous enamel)
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmalte
https://www.brycus.pt/gas-moderno-ferro-75-chassis-esmaltado...
esmalte in Pt/pt is also used for painting with glossy paint (esmaltado)
https://www.google.com/search?q=esmalte sintetico&client=fir...

Rodrigo Gonçalves May 1, 2020:

Pergunta, mais que sugestão, para o Brasil:
1ª ocorrência (unfired glaze): esmalte pre-cozido ou esmalte cru
2ª ocorrência: (to prevent glaze): para evitar a vitrificação
3ª ocorrência: (underglazed): ?

Rodrigo Gonçalves May 1, 2020:

Prezado Nick. Concordo que o texto pede por um substantivo. Gostaria de sugerir o termo "vidrado" para Portugal e simplesmente "esmalte" para o Brasil. Apesar de ser leigo, não creio que o termo "vidrado" seja aplicável no Brasil. Aproveitando o ensejo, como traduzir o termo "underglazed" também presente no texto?

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

@Lilian These terms might not be familiar to the layman but they are 100% correct and I think it would be a mistake to include the wrong terms in the Glossary (Just my humble opinion) Nick taylor PhD in ceramic design and Technolofy
Glazed ceramics - cerâmica vidrada (adjective)
Applying glaze - aplicar o vidrado (noun)
Slip - Barbotina - https://www.funceramics.pt/barbotina/

Nick Taylor May 1, 2020:

@Lilian vitrificado, and envidraçado are both edjectives. The source text calls for a noun i.e. VIDRADO
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidrado
I have taught ceramics in a Portuguese University for 20 years, and my students go on to the ceramics industry. That is why the terms ENGOBE and BARBOTINA are also the correct terms, and the Ceramic companies I work for too, would be very upset with the glossary entry. Quem sabe , sabe.