| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Age discrimination in job posting on Proz Thread poster: Elizabeth Tauroza
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Edward Potter 
Spain
Local time: 04:31
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
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Samuel Murray wrote: Elizabeth Tauroza wrote:
I would just like to point out that a job for IT-EN translators recently advertised on Proz must surely be in breach of both Italian and EU legislation regarding age discrimination. Really? Can you point to a specific law that is being broken here? Would it also be illegal in Italy for a patient to switch doctors because he discovered that his docter has a different gender? For example, if you are pregnant and you go see a gynae or midwife with an obviously female name, and when you get there you discover it is a man -- would it be illegal for you to say "sorry, I thought you were a woman" and then see another doctor from that point onward? It would be illegal for a restaurant owner to refuse to hire a person as a waiter based solely on gender, but would it also be illegal for a restaurant customer to refuse to be waited on by a person because of that waiter's gender (if the restaurant owner is willing to tolerate this)? See, the principle here is that there is no employer-employee relationship between us and clients. I can't help wondering why they are looking for translators in that age range. Do they think that people start getting senile after 40 years old? Or is it that they are hoping candidates will apply lower rates if they are younger? My guess is that they believe a candidate of under 25 years lacks life experience that older people have, and a candidate of over 40 would be less computer literate than older candidates. The life experience thing has something to be said for it, but computer literacy can be lacking in al ages. Thinking out of the box... a person aged 25-40 would have been in high school in the 80s and 90s, and the teen popular music styles in those decades were quite differnet from the styles of the 60's, 70's and 00's -- and this might also have an effect on the way you translate, right? (not entirely serious)
[Edited at 2011-05-04 23:43 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 04:31
French to German
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| The point which was missed IMHO... | May 4, 2011 |
with reference to Edward's last post quoting Samuel is that all the discriminations mentioned in this thread are not "born equal" and that their weightiness may differ according to any given context.
Also and with reference to the OP, I think this thread was started out of a sense of injustice (whether justified or not) that we meet all too often in these fora.
I am failing to see how defending a theoretical point of view may help in any way to get out of this.
... See more with reference to Edward's last post quoting Samuel is that all the discriminations mentioned in this thread are not "born equal" and that their weightiness may differ according to any given context.
Also and with reference to the OP, I think this thread was started out of a sense of injustice (whether justified or not) that we meet all too often in these fora.
I am failing to see how defending a theoretical point of view may help in any way to get out of this.
Maybe we should simply agree to disagree? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 04:31
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Agree to disagree | May 4, 2011 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Maybe we should simply agree to disagree?
I just killed my short comments to Samuel. As I mentioned in my post just before it, I am bowing out.
I did mention three books that give real world historical analysis of these types of issues, in case anyone would like further develop their views. They are:
"Migrations and Cultures","Economic Facts and Fallacies", and "Advanced Economics: Getting Beyond Stage One".
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 04:31
English to Polish
+ ...
| what happens if such ads are banned | May 5, 2011 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Cheers to you hardcore free market dreamers - sorry, idealists. We have anti-discrimination laws because they make the economy better. Everyone should know this, but particularly if you're from the US, with the southern states' dreadful history of discrimination, you should be ashamed of yourself for not understanding the point of anti-discrimination law.
The point is one thing, the actual effect is another.
Banning "discriminatory" ads will hurt translators. If an outsourcer wants a 29-year-old straight bearded woman with no left foot, they'll ignore all applications of candidates other than those who meet the criteria. If the outsourcer wants young, they'll get young. The only result is that the middle-aged and the elderly have wasted their time responding.
Besides, another side effect is the controversy around what discrimination is and what isn't. A few people have talked about how it might make perfect sense to prefer young people if your target audience is young, or older people if, for instance, the translator should be familiar with the daily life under Communism. Enforcing anti-discrimination laws is very, very difficult. They're largely fiction.
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| Read the CVs! | May 5, 2011 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
The point is one thing, the actual effect is another.
Banning "discriminatory" ads will hurt translators. If an outsourcer wants a 29-year-old straight bearded woman with no left foot, they'll ignore all applications of candidates other than those who meet the criteria. If the outsourcer wants young, they'll get young. The only result is that the middle-aged and the elderly have wasted their time responding.
Besides, another side effect is the controversy around what discrimination is and what isn't. A few people have talked about how it might make perfect sense to prefer young people if your target audience is young, or older people if, for instance, the translator should be familiar with the daily life under Communism. Enforcing anti-discrimination laws is very, very difficult. They're largely fiction.
The outsourcers have only one thing to do : read the CVs!!
Then, they'll make their choice.
It's so simple.
Catherine
[Edited at 2011-05-05 11:39 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 04:31
French to German
+ ...
As a side note, I am under the impression that some posts confuse "morality" and "legality" - this is a dangerous slope as we all should know.
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 04:31
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Banning "discriminatory" ads will hurt translators. If an outsourcer wants a 29-year-old straight bearded woman with no left foot, they'll ignore all applications of candidates other than those who meet the criteria.
Why on earth would it hurt professional translators to have one job proposal less if that job proposal is based on criteria that have nothing to do with professional skills? Just try to go to your garage, and specify what physical characteristics the technician should have to get the privilege of working on your car. They will simply laugh at you.
Attila
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 04:31
English to Polish
+ ...
Those ads will not disappear. They will now exclude the undesired criteria. However, the poster will still apply these criteria. So we'll apply for jobs, often in some customised format or using customised content, that we have zero chance of getting. Isn't it fairly obvious, if you think of it?
[Edited at 2011-05-05 12:34 GMT]
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Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 04:31
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Admit that you are powerless... | May 5, 2011 |
So we'll apply for jobs
No, I will not. Freelancer service providers do not apply for jobs. I will consider sending a quote if I deem that it is worth my time. And if I see such non-professional requirements, I simply won't bother. And so won't a lot of colleagues who have a sufficiently high esteem for their profession and themselves not to stoop to trying to sell anything else then their professionalism.
But of course you can admit that you are powerless in face of the almighty outsourcer, let them specify any ludicrous requirement, "apply for the job" and hope you will be the lucky one. Of course, you can say,
If they make me wear pink slips while I translate but pay me 25 cents a word, why not.
But that's simply not how good clients operate: they focus on professional qualities alone. Feel free to challenge this view by starting a thread where contributors can share real-life experience on what extra-professional qualities their best clients require. Mine – none.
Attila
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 04:31
English to Polish
+ ...
| Attilla, read again please | May 5, 2011 |
because you're not making any sense.
Attila Piróth wrote:
And if I see such non-professional requirements, I simply won't bother.
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 04:31
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote: because you're not making any sense. Attila Piróth wrote:
And if I see such non-professional requirements, I simply won't bother.
If I see such non-professional requirements [such as the ones you mentioned: "only 29-year-old straight bearded women with no left foot should apply"], I simply won't bother [quoting] [even if I meet those requirements]. What is not clear about this?
I will give you a real-life example. An outsourcer contacted me about the a translation in a subfield of engineering. She presented the project, and said, because of the subject matter, the end client prefers to have it translated by a male translator. Now this was a clear red sign to me: if the client considers this to be a factor in selecting the proper translator, it clearly shows that he does not understand the value of our service - otherwise he would not exclude half (or more) of the very capable candidates because of a stupid sexist prejudice. So, why would I want to work with someone like that? I just did not feel like taking a chance of running into problems, which are much more frequent with clients who are inadequately informed. Without his stupid remark, I would have.
Conclusion: by specifying an inadequate criterion, he lost immediately over half of the candidates (who could have been good but whom he may not have considered) PLUS ONE (at least) that he would have considered.
Attila
| | | | | Similar Experience | May 6, 2011 |
Attila Piróth wrote: Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote: because you're not making any sense. Attila Piróth wrote:
And if I see such non-professional requirements, I simply won't bother.
If I see such non-professional requirements [such as the ones you mentioned: "only 29-year-old straight bearded women with no left foot should apply"], I simply won't bother [quoting] [even if I meet those requirements]. What is not clear about this? I will give you a real-life example. An outsourcer contacted me about the a translation in a subfield of engineering. She presented the project, and said, because of the subject matter, the end client prefers to have it translated by a male translator. Now this was a clear red sign to me: if the client considers this to be a factor in selecting the proper translator, it clearly shows that he does not understand the value of our service - otherwise he would not exclude half (or more) of the very capable candidates because of a stupid sexist prejudice. So, why would I want to work with someone like that? I just did not feel like taking a chance of running into problems, which are much more frequent with clients who are inadequately informed. Without his stupid remark, I would have. Conclusion: by specifying an inadequate criterion, he lost immediately over half of the candidates (who could have been good but whom he may not have considered) PLUS ONE (at least) that he would have considered. Attila
I had a similar experience a few years ago.
I was contacted by an Australian agency to translate a marketing material for cosmetics and a legal contract between the manufacturer and the distributor.
The agency picked me as their first choice for the whole project, but the end client changed their mind and told the translation agency to give the marketing material to a female, who would know more about cosmetics but more than that, that females would be able to write in a FEMININE way.
A feminine way? What's that?
Consequently, the agency told me what their client told them, and I got to do the legal part only, since the contract didn't have to be written in a feminine way.
Can you believe that? Totally preposterous!
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 04:31
English to Polish
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Attila Piróth wrote: Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote: because you're not making any sense. Attila Piróth wrote:
And if I see such non-professional requirements, I simply won't bother.
If I see such non-professional requirements [such as the ones you mentioned: "only 29-year-old straight bearded women with no left foot should apply"], I simply won't bother [quoting] [even if I meet those requirements]. What is not clear about this?
You didn't re-read my post, so I'll repeat. Banning "discriminatory" ads will hurt translators because:
- the ad will still be there - the posters will not cease to post,
- the ad will not contain discriminatory criteria,
- the outsourcer will still discriminate - by discarding the old, the Greek, the intelligent, the bearded, etc.
- you will not ignore the ad like you do know. You will apply, not knowing you have zero chance because there's something the outsourcer doesn't like about you but is prohibited to mention. You will waste your time.
[Edited at 2011-05-06 09:58 GMT]
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 04:31
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| @ Krzysztof - once again | May 6, 2011 |
You didn't re-read my post, so I'll repeat.
I think this falls well within the scope of http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/5#5, "Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed." For one thing, I did re-read your post.
Banning "discriminatory" ads will hurt translators because:
- the ad will still be there - the posters will not cease to post,
- the ad will not contain discriminatory criteria,
- the outsourcer will still discriminate - by discarding the old, the Greek, the intelligent, the bearded, etc.
I see a very clear difference with voicing a discriminatory criterion publicly. For one thing, for the image of our profession. (Can you tell me more about the translator you worked with? Yeah, her cv was really convincing. She was just as qualified as three other candidates, and even though she did not have a very detailed track record, she looked gorgeous on her swimsuit photo.)
Without demanding specific information, the outsourcer may not be in a position to assess whether the translator satisfies his unprofessional criterion. E.g., "Claude Dupont"'s cv may not specify whether it is a he or a she – let alone his/her age. So, the outsourcer may not be able to apply his discriminatory criterion. Her selection is more likely to be guided by professional criteria only.
- you will not ignore the ad like you do know. You will apply, not knowing you have zero chance because there's something the outsourcer doesn't like about you but is prohibited to mention. You will waste your time.
I don't think it is zero chance.
I remember a job post where country of the target language was required for the translator's country of residence. Well, I don't happen to live in Hungary, but I was convinced that my profile was quite well aligned with the task at hand, so I sent a quote - because I did not consider this filter to be utterly unprofessional. So, I sent something like "If you do not wish to consider native speakers specializing in the field who no longer live in their native country, please ignore this email..." And it worked - they were open to revise their position. Client education can sometimes work.
The same may very easily apply to unvoiced criteria that the outsourcer may consider. They can change their mind.
Attila
| | | | | Am I the only one who's discouraged? | May 6, 2011 |
Attila Piróth wrote: - you will not ignore the ad like you do know. You will apply, not knowing you have zero chance because there's something the outsourcer doesn't like about you but is prohibited to mention. You will waste your time. I don't think it is zero chance. I remember a job post where country of the target language was required for the translator's country of residence. Well, I don't happen to live in Hungary, but I was convinced that my profile was quite well aligned with the task at hand, so I sent a quote - because I did not consider this filter to be utterly unprofessional. So, I sent something like "If you do not wish to consider native speakers specializing in the field who no longer live in their native country, please ignore this email..." And it worked - they were open to revise their position. Client education can sometimes work. The same may very easily apply to unvoiced criteria that the outsourcer may consider. They can change their mind. Attila
I sometimes see ads where they specify the country of residence like you mentioned above. But when I see those ads, I don't quote or apply, since I'm discouraged to do so by seeing that they require a Japanese native speaker (in my case), who lives in European Standard Time or even a Japanese who has a US resident permit currently residing in the US in order to avoid time zone differences.
Personally, I don't take this as a discrimination, but I'm turned off by these kinds of requirements.
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